Author Topic: The Perfect Invitational  (Read 5614 times)

ArizonaMock

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« on: April 12, 2004, 03:58:27 am »
Arizona will pick a final date and begin preparations for its very own, and very first Invitational by Wednesday of this week. As I embark on this endeavor with my teammates I am faced with a daunting prospect. We want to create the best invitational we can. Yet, we aren't sure how to achieve that goal. So, we humbly beseech our friends in the mock trial world, experts that you all are.

What makes a good invitational? What are the must-haves? What have you not seen done, that you would really love to see at an invite? What was the finest thing you've seen done at an invitational?

What things did you not like? (please, let's not name names) What is the worst thing you've seen? What can ruin an invitational experience?

We enter this endeavor with two primary goals:
No coach judging (a common and lofty goal)
A full service invitational, we plan to aid attending in every aspect, from assisting in booking travel and securing favorable rates to offering shuttles to lessen program cost.

Need we have other primary objectives?

We welcome your input.
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Jaggers27

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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 04:16:07 am »
What makes a favorable invitational for me is an invitational where all the essentials are done and done well.  Some examples of "essentials" are at least two judges per round, rooms that allow for a decent well of the court, a well-run, open tab room, and sensible scheduling.  having hinted at these essentials, here is a wish list:

1) As many judges as possible - If three judges per round is a possibility, then go for it!  let's face it, the judges are the most important part of any invitational, and the more judges you see, the more comments, constructive criticism, and reactions to your perforrmances youget to have.

2) Relaxed Scheduling - for the first day, start the trials a little late and please be SURE to schedule enough time between rounds for an enjoyable lunch.  ie Round 1: 9:30 - 1:00, lunch to 2:30, round 2 3:30 - 7:00

3) If possible, it's always nice to have rooms that emulate a courtroom, or at least have a counsel table.

4) Open tab rooms are a definite plus.  Some teams like to know how they did, others don't - but at least leave the option open.

Just my two cents on the matter.
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gabi37avsfan

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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 08:27:32 am »
I realize this can sometimes not be avoided, but...I hate having  rooms for invitationals where it's a classroom and the chairs are attached to desks.  It makes standing for objections a real bitch.  

Also, having a lunch option on the second day can be nice depending on the likelihood of scrounging up food quickly in the nearby area.

I concur with Jaggers27 on the late rounds, and the judges.  :-)

Also, having plenty of people around to give directions, point people on their way to trial is very helpful.  (At Miami-Ohio's regional, there were people everywhere giving directions, etc. and it was really nice.)

Good luck! :-)
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MockDock

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 05:35:06 pm »
The main thing is efficiency.  Stick as closely to the schedule as possible.  Have the judges meeting go pretty quickly, so you won't have teams waiting in the rooms forever for the judges to come in.  

I also like what Yale had in having a final round between top 2 teams, for the winner.  Not only does it give these teams more practice, but it allows other teams to watch and pick up a few things if they so please.

Also, try something new with the pairings.  Like the Shucker had no 4th round constraints, or with UCLA having the challenge system.

And, of course, no invitational would be complete without a traveling trophy.

Golden Skull

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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 05:57:16 pm »
Quote from: Jaggers27
Some examples of "essentials" are at least two judges per round


I couldn't agree more.  Two judges per round is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.  Bad things that happen without two judges per round: less scores for feedback, less comments, less of a chance to see how well-liked a particular aspect of the case is, and at awards, more ties (since there's no possibility of a split).  An invitational without two judges, especially one that's in a remote part of the country, is a waste of time and money.  If you have to pull coaches to get the second judge, do it!

I would say that another thing that I would want from an invitational would be an opportunity to measure my team against teams that I know to be really good or that have a great reputation.  This can be done in a variety of ways - trying to recruit big names, challenge format in round 1, etc.  Just having lots of good teams make the chances that you'll hit one even better.  Plus, there's something to be said for variety - so making sure that there's a chance that teams will hit other teams they've never hit before is good too.  I wouldn't be scared to hit new programs either - they can learn from powerhouses, and (though this is sometimes downplayed) powerhouses can learn from them.

That's all I can think of now.

ArizonaMock

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2004, 06:01:06 pm »
Quote from: Jaggers27
What makes a favorable invitational for me is an invitational where all the essentials are done and done well.  Some examples of "essentials" are at least two judges per round, rooms that allow for a decent well of the court, a well-run, open tab room, and sensible scheduling.  having hinted at these essentials, here is a wish list:

1) As many judges as possible - If three judges per round is a possibility, then go for it!  let's face it, the judges are the most important part of any invitational, and the more judges you see, the more comments, constructive criticism, and reactions to your perforrmances youget to have.

2) Relaxed Scheduling - for the first day, start the trials a little late and please be SURE to schedule enough time between rounds for an enjoyable lunch.  ie Round 1: 9:30 - 1:00, lunch to 2:30, round 2 3:30 - 7:00

3) If possible, it's always nice to have rooms that emulate a courtroom, or at least have a counsel table.

4) Open tab rooms are a definite plus.  Some teams like to know how they did, others don't - but at least leave the option open.

Just my two cents on the matter.


As to the rooms, we are trying very hard to secure either the Tucson Federal or Superior courthouses for both days. I do not know if it is possible for Sunday but I'm fairly confident about Saturday. There courtrooms will work quite well for MT--Federal especially.....

1.)We will be relatively small in size. Judges are our #1 priority. We're shooting for 3 per round.

2.) That may not be possible if we have a courthouse, but would be possible for day two, where I think it might be more necessary.

3.) Of course. Thank you for the heads up though.
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Jaggers27

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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2004, 06:01:38 pm »
Quote from: Golden Skull
I couldn't agree more.  Two judges per round is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY...An invitational without two judges, especially one that's in a remote part of the country, is a waste of time and money.


Mike, how 'bout you tell us how you REALLY feel? :p

I'm also going to chime in for support of the challenge system as an awesome way to make the invitational more fun and more useful.
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2004, 06:06:10 pm »
Quote from: Golden Skull




I couldn't agree more.  Two judges per round is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.  Bad things that happen without two judges per round: less scores for feedback, less comments, less of a chance to see how well-liked a particular aspect of the case is, and at awards, more ties (since there's no possibility of a split).  An invitational without two judges, especially one that's in a remote part of the country, is a waste of time and money.  If you have to pull coaches to get the second judge, do it!

I would say that another thing that I would want from an invitational would be an opportunity to measure my team against teams that I know to be really good or that have a great reputation.  This can be done in a variety of ways - trying to recruit big names, challenge format in round 1, etc.  Just having lots of good teams make the chances that you'll hit one even better.  Plus, there's something to be said for variety - so making sure that there's a chance that teams will hit other teams they've never hit before is good too.  I wouldn't be scared to hit new programs either - they can learn from powerhouses, and (though this is sometimes downplayed) powerhouses can learn from them.

That's all I can think of now.


I fully support a challenge format. As of now I'm realistically looking at 13-14 teams before we do serious "recruiting" of teams. If we get to 18, we'll do a challenge format.

Judges are again, priority number one. Natasha is well liked in the legal community and I'm putting her in charge of recruiting judges.

From a competition standpoint, It should be tough:
4-5 UCLA
1-2 Weber St.
2-3 Arizona
2 Portland (I think)
Possibly Cal and Stanford, we're contacting them.
Texas has a standing invite.
Arizona State (reborn)
Northern Arizona (In theory)
Scottsdale CC (if they live again)

Then mix in whomever else comes. We might be opposite Loras though....we'll see.
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2004, 06:07:43 pm »
Quote from: MockDock
The main thing is efficiency.  Stick as closely to the schedule as possible.  Have the judges meeting go pretty quickly, so you won't have teams waiting in the rooms forever for the judges to come in.  

I also like what Yale had in having a final round between top 2 teams, for the winner.  Not only does it give these teams more practice, but it allows other teams to watch and pick up a few things if they so please.

Also, try something new with the pairings.  Like the Shucker had no 4th round constraints, or with UCLA having the challenge system.

And, of course, no invitational would be complete without a traveling trophy.


I have a traveling trophy in mind. As well as  "Loras" style awards. I am debating side constraints, but will probably adhere to the AMTA standard. A final round is a wonderful idea. We'll discuss it, thank you.
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Mock Captain

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2004, 06:25:22 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Quote from: Golden Skull




I couldn't agree more.  Two judges per round is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.  Bad things that happen without two judges per round: less scores for feedback, less comments, less of a chance to see how well-liked a particular aspect of the case is, and at awards, more ties (since there's no possibility of a split).  An invitational without two judges, especially one that's in a remote part of the country, is a waste of time and money.  If you have to pull coaches to get the second judge, do it!

I would say that another thing that I would want from an invitational would be an opportunity to measure my team against teams that I know to be really good or that have a great reputation.  This can be done in a variety of ways - trying to recruit big names, challenge format in round 1, etc.  Just having lots of good teams make the chances that you'll hit one even better.  Plus, there's something to be said for variety - so making sure that there's a chance that teams will hit other teams they've never hit before is good too.  I wouldn't be scared to hit new programs either - they can learn from powerhouses, and (though this is sometimes downplayed) powerhouses can learn from them.

That's all I can think of now.


I fully support a challenge format. As of now I'm realistically looking at 13-14 teams before we do serious "recruiting" of teams. If we get to 18, we'll do a challenge format.

Judges are again, priority number one. Natasha is well liked in the legal community and I'm putting her in charge of recruiting judges.

From a competition standpoint, It should be tough:
4-5 UCLA
1-2 Weber St.
2-3 Arizona
2 Portland (I think)
Possibly Cal and Stanford, we're contacting them.
Texas has a standing invite.
Arizona State (reborn)
Northern Arizona (In theory)
Scottsdale CC (if they live again)

Then mix in whomever else comes. We might be opposite Loras though....we'll see.



You forgot us Jimmy! We should be able to do enough bake sales to get out there!  

ps- the only way to judge an invitational is by the afterparty, and the women of course...but I understand that AZ is full of them...lol.
ANy party planned?

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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 06:28:29 pm »
Actually some sort of organized social function is high on our lists of things to try and accomplish. Among the original and staunchest supporters of the Mock Trial community, Arizona Mock Trial is pro community. We are among the first moderators of p.com, the founders of the mock trial web ring, and frequent posters. We can think of nothing better than a social event at an invite!

We'll work on it Hicksy. MCC is of course invited, it'd be good to have ya out. Weather'll be kickin.
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candacejuliana

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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2004, 06:29:37 pm »
i love the challenge format...it makes the first rounds extremely tough, but it gets the tournament off to a really good, solid, and competitive start.

is it going to be a two-day or a three-day?  i really like the relaxing nature of the three-day (des moines-style) tournament.  still, if it's going to be a two-day, i echo others in that the perfect invitational doesn't start any of its days at ungodly hours like 8am or 8:30.  9am captain's, at the earliest.

shooting for no coach judges is a noble goal, but i don't mind coach judges at all...often, i like them even better than attorney judges.  i like judge judges best of all, but i think if you need coaches to put it to three judges per round, use coaches.  let the attorneys score and the coaches (who know the intricacies of mock trial procedure) preside.
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Mock Captain

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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2004, 06:29:44 pm »
Good times.
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2004, 06:31:19 pm »
We anticipate a fair number of judge judges. We have a few Super court judges that will assistin in recruitment I'm told.
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candacejuliana

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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 06:34:01 pm »
that's beautiful.  my favourite judges during the course of my mock trial career have always been judge judges...all the ones i've seen were so competent, fair, and constructive.
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2004, 08:36:59 pm »
The perfect invitational would have rooms specially designated for mockers to make out in between rounds.  That way, they could do so in private, not in the middle of public hallways.  This would allow us to avoid a repeat of the unfortunate events of Sunday, April 4th in Des Moines, Iowa.

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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2004, 08:53:41 pm »
Moses do you think that the perfect invitational would have rooms specially designated for mockers to make out in between rounds?  I mean, that way, they could do so in private, not in the middle of public hallways. This would allow us to avoid a repeat of the unfortunate events of Sunday, April 4th in Des Moines, Iowa.

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Mock Captain

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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2004, 09:25:04 pm »
HAHAHA...funny shit.  But I do agree with Moses's posts....BOTH OF THEM.
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2004, 10:19:54 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Among the original and staunchest supporters of the Mock Trial community, Arizona Mock Trial is pro community. We are among the first moderators of p.com, the founders of the mock trial web ring, and frequent posters.


Wow...umm.....Arizona Mock Trial for President?  :confused:
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Mock Captain

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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2004, 10:38:35 pm »
Its funny that he prob wrote that post as the Ms. America Pageant was on...it is on tonight.....hmmm....sounds like a "world peace" speach!
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2004, 10:44:25 pm »
But seriously, Jimmy... I already have word from 3 of my teammates that they'd definitely love to come to your invite. It'd be a good chance to, you know, check things out...

Also, I concur with the necessity of THREE judges. Do we recall that our miserable 3rd round in Des Moines was at the hands of TWO bitter, bitter judges who BOTH scored? Perhaps a third eyewitness to the situation may have come in handy...
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2004, 11:14:56 pm »
Quote from: MockinDiva




Wow...umm.....Arizona Mock Trial for President?  :confused:


A sexy title. One I care not to hold again.
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2004, 11:16:06 pm »
Quote from: MockinDiva
But seriously, Jimmy... I already have word from 3 of my teammates that they'd definitely love to come to your invite. It'd be a good chance to, you know, check things out...

Also, I concur with the necessity of THREE judges. Do we recall that our miserable 3rd round in Des Moines was at the hands of TWO bitter, bitter judges who BOTH scored? Perhaps a third eyewitness to the situation may have come in handy...


We'll keep you in the loop. We've got massive date issues. We might end up hosting the week of your regional.
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MockinDiva

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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2004, 01:22:11 pm »
In that case, you'll need the following information:

Manchester Community College drinks Bud Light. Well, we can down some Sam Adams as well, and if you got the extra funds, Guiness always goes over well. Also, for the ladies, we got some who are quite fond of those Twisted drinks and Maribel, our time keeper, is a sophisticated one...she will only drink White Zin. Got that, love? :)

Take it from a member of the bestest hosting school ever- GOTTA know what your guests like to drink.  :D

Also...male to female ratio, at this point, is approximately 2-2. We like things even.
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candacejuliana

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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2004, 01:41:32 pm »
girlie drinks...pfft.  real men like me drink beer.  :D
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Mock Captain

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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2004, 10:44:05 pm »
Quote from: MockinDiva
In that case, you'll need the following information:

Manchester Community College drinks Bud Light. Well, we can down some Sam Adams as well, and if you got the extra funds, Guiness always goes over well. Also, for the ladies, we got some who are quite fond of those Twisted drinks and Maribel, our time keeper, is a sophisticated one...she will only drink White Zin. Got that, love? :)

Take it from a member of the bestest hosting school ever- GOTTA know what your guests like to drink.  :D

Also...male to female ratio, at this point, is approximately 2-2. We like things even.



Actually....since you are buying Jimmy.....I will have Hoegarden beer from Switzerland/or/Sweeden...AND SOME GUINESS!

And our ratio Sarah at Nationals was easily 3:1  (there were only 3 guy mockers there!)

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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2004, 11:38:08 pm »
ah...i've never had hoegaarten beer, but i got a hoegaarten beer glass as the random door prize drawing at pub trivia last night!!

yay beer glasses!!!
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ArizonaMock

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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2004, 03:34:19 am »
RIGHT....back on topic. SO, what ELSE makes a good invitational...keep on giving folks :)
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2004, 09:14:32 am »
A good tournament is a tournament with enough teams at your level of competition to guarantee you'll hit at least one or two.

"Really good" is different depending on your standards.  At Rhodes, really good means hitting a national championship contender.  At Loras or the Shucker, it means hitting a future top ten team.

If there's only one really awesome team, looking at your list that would be UCLA, it gets boring unless someone can actually challenge that team.  A tournament kinda sucks when one team takes all the awards and first and second place. Try to keep the competition even or at least make sure there are 2 or 3 teams in this "elite echelon" to keep things interesting.
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2004, 11:25:12 am »
trying :)
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« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 11:42:28 am »
Who do you have in mind?

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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 11:45:04 am »
The short list we're working for is:

UCLA
USC
Stanford
Cal
Arizona
Arizona State
Northern Arizona (if there plans come to fruition)
Scottsdale (if they restart)
Texas
Weber St.

We've got a couple of powers whom we'd like to invite, but given our likely date we'd eliminate teams like MCC and MTSU who we knew might be interested. Given our date we'd also eliminate the midwest.....we'll see...there's a reason why the date isn't final.
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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2004, 11:45:50 am »
Jimmy,

The two most important things are judges and timeliness.  Unfortunately, the former can some times screw the latter, but that's an issue beyond your control.  Begin recruiting judges early.  It will be the most difficult task of the tournament.  If AZ requires CLE credit for attorneys, register the tournament for CLE credit -- this will incentivize attorneys to participate.  As for timeliness, make a reasonable schedule and stick to it.  This means preparing as much as you can in advance, having sufficient, competent help in the tab room, with the judges, and all other aspects of the tournament, and generally keeping organized and focused.  What makes a great tournament, though, is competition.  As RadLib noted, the more top teams you can recruit, the better.  But to do this, you'll have to demonstrate in advance that you can put together a good tournament.  We attended a tournament last year that I will never attend again, and I know our frustrations were shared by many there -- so they will likely not be able to recruit top teams again.  So show people that you will be organized and that you will have sufficient judges (who are attorneys or judges or even law professors, but not random professionals or laborers), and good teams will come.

Good luck.
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2004, 11:47:33 am »
*nods* that's the plan for summer, to secure the facilities (c'mon Federal courthouse!) and to lock down at least 50% of our judging pool by August.
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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2004, 03:00:47 pm »
Jimmy--

I agree with Prince--timeliness is key.  Long breaks are terrible.  Some other suggestions--take them for what they're worth:

1.)  Face-to-face challenge round.  My favorite part of a tournament, save fourth round.  Nothing like calling out the opposition.

2.)  I am a fan of the two-day format for invitationals; I think three-day is best suited for nationals.

3.)  Reasonable sized wells of the courtroom, whether or not in a courthouse.

4.)  Open tab room with civil people running it.  Best would be having an AMTA official there, they always seem to bring calm to the storm :)

5.)  Cool trophy.  Don't make it a giant phallus though; I think that's taken.  ;)

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« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2004, 03:02:37 pm »
Take Northwestern's lead and have some fun with the trophies.

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« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2004, 03:12:53 pm »
what did NWU do?
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« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2004, 03:14:53 pm »
Quote from: NDmock
Take Northwestern's lead and have some fun with the trophies.


i really liked Columbia's spirit of NY award for the lowest spirit of AMTA ranking (least civil) contenders...

i think you guys could easily do something like that, and it always makes the award ceremony a little less tense...

ohh, you should also invite Gonzaga.

-jp

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« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2004, 03:16:06 pm »
Heh...I love the idea JP...I just don't know what we'd call it. The Spirit of Gonzaga?
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« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 03:17:29 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Heh...I love the idea JP...I just don't know what we'd call it. The Spirit of Gonzaga?


well, in all the rounds i've hit them, they've been very civil, nice even...

guess the AZ just brings out the worst in 'em.  :confused:

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« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2004, 03:19:33 pm »
My biggest pet peeve this year with tournaments - If you have to use classrooms, MAKE SURE THEY ARE BIG ENOUGH!!!!  Make sure people can get around in them; no point in asking for freedom to move about the well if "the well" doesn't exist.  Also don't overdo it on the number of teams attending - stay within boundaries you can handle.  Better to have a good tournament with 15-20 teams than a clusterf*ck with 30-40.
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« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2004, 03:19:48 pm »
*shrugs* Aside from being petty in general, they called my beloved saint of a coach a bitch! If I called Jamal a fuckwad, I'd expect you to not care for me much at all :)

Naw, they aint too terrible. Water under the bridge right :) See, New York can call it the spirit of New York award...I just don't know what we'd call it :)
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« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2004, 03:20:40 pm »
Quote from: The Gelf
My biggest pet peeve this year with tournaments - If you have to use classrooms, MAKE SURE THEY ARE BIG ENOUGH!!!!  Make sure people can get around in them; no point in asking for freedom to move about the well if "the well" doesn't exist.  Also don't overdo it on the number of teams attending - stay within boundaries you can handle.  Better to have a good tournament with 15-20 teams than a clusterf*ck with 30-40.


Well said. We're capping at 24, but that'd be an impressive number. I'm expecting 16-18 teams.
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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2004, 03:21:19 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Heh...I love the idea JP...I just don't know what we'd call it. The Spirit of Gonzaga?


The Spirit of NY was an awesome idea (hell, the whole Columbia tourney was awesome, just copy everything they did).  But it kind of has special relevance in NY that it probably would not have in Arizona.  Last I checked, Arizona residents did not have rude reputations.
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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2004, 03:23:32 pm »
We have many ex New Yorkers :) You've hit the point though....we don't have a hook for such an award.
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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2004, 03:28:44 pm »
I will second (third?  fourth?) the importance of the challenge round.  Heck, I think it would be a good idea to have a podium where each challenging captain can go up and call out their team of choice in front of everybody, using swear words if necessary...but I'm a bit more confrontational about these things than most trialers.

I also like the idea of the Oscar that the Shucker and Columbia use.

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« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2004, 03:30:08 pm »
i love being able to challenge right in front of people.  sometimes pre-tourney challenging isn't so efficient...like at Loras this year, Kansas challenged us, and it was literally on the front page of the Loras student newspaper before my team knew anything about it.
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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2004, 03:34:09 pm »
Also, each challenging team must be required to give a reason for their particular choice, and it must be grudge-related.  If a challenging team does not have a grudge against any team at your tournament, they will be required to manufacture one.  I would be glad to give tips on how this may be done.  I am something of an expert (though probably not more of one than Jimmy).

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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2004, 03:48:44 pm »
I think we should make all of the big travelling trophies (The Corn, The Rhodes Cup, The Bellarmine Trophy, The MTSU Gavel, The Madison Hose, does columbia or UCLA have a traveling trophy? etc.) more like belts in boxing.  In the first round challenge you can challenge a team and win their hardware with two ballots.  Also teams with deeper pockets should be able to purchase traveling trophies from poorer teams to help them attend more invites etc.  Then someone needs to hold a tournament that you can only compete at if you have a "belt" and then whichever 'belts' you have at the end of the year, gets you into their home tournament for free the next year.

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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2004, 03:49:29 pm »
Haha! We'll have an Oscar-esque award. Already named and all :) Grudge challenges huh? Maybe after the first year...let's form grudges first.
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2004, 04:11:54 pm »
Quote from: The Gelf

 (hell, the whole Columbia tourney was awesome, just copy everything they did).


Word.

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« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2004, 04:37:22 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Grudge challenges huh? Maybe after the first year...let's form grudges first.


AMTA's been around 20 years...there's been plenty of time for grudges to form!!  :)
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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2004, 05:13:43 pm »
Quote from: ArizonaMock
Heh...I love the idea JP...I just don't know what we'd call it. The Spirit of Gonzaga?


Not to turn this into an entirely off-topic post or anything, but I really don't think that Gonzaga is that uncivil...sure, we have our moments, as all mock trialers do, but most of the people I have had the privilige of working with in my two years competing at Gonzaga have been amazing, caring people...and, to turn this back on topic, good luck with your invitational AZ, I hope that you have the best of luck in creating an invitational that exemplifies the best of AMTA--good competition and good spirit.

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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2004, 05:18:36 pm »
Out of curiosity, what happened to the Wisconsin select invitational that UWM (I think) used to host?  I've heard many a tale about Dan Shapiro's exploits at that tournament, and it sounds like it was awesome.
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2004, 05:38:18 pm »
i've been kind of wondering the same thing...i know selects haven't existed since my first year of college, before i started mocking, but i heard stories from a good friend of mine who mocked there that year.
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2004, 06:19:14 pm »
I attended both of the UWM select tournaments.  They were always a blast.  Brad had no qualms about a little experimentation with Brackets and such.  One year the individual awards were calculated taking into account your teams record.  And,  I think it was Brad's mom who cooked up some delicious food for the award ceremony.  It was a good time all around, oh and all of the rounds were videotaped as I recall, and there was a little control room or something where you could watch the trials.  That seems like a luxury many coaches would love to take advantage of.

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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2004, 06:30:53 pm »
That sounds like it would have been awesome.  If only I had been born earlier!
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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2004, 06:54:27 pm »
Sounds great!  The "rematch" challenge.
I'm thinking a few replays of Nationals fourth rounds...
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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2004, 08:17:49 pm »
Quote from: crialkilru
Out of curiosity, what happened to the Wisconsin select invitational that UWM (I think) used to host?  I've heard many a tale about Dan Shapiro's exploits at that tournament, and it sounds like it was awesome.


I can answer that!  We scheduled Select in March with the weekend being the weekend of our Spring Break that was not also the Saint Paul National weekend. The idea was that teams qualifying for Des Moines often had as much as an eight-week dead time between their qualifier and the Championship.  I felt they needed opportunity to keep the rust off.

Select ended after two years because I was thoroughly turned off by ridiculous UWM parking policies (why ticket guests when the whole campus is empty!) and by low blows from certain UWM folks. (I responded to complaints about Select I that were raised for the first time the January following the March tournament.) So, I said we'll never host again. (A regional qualifier, two Silvers and two invitationals are enough for a while.)

But I encourage the AMTA community to adopt some of the things that Select did well.  My objective was to maximize the number of trial rounds that could be put together over a weekend. More bang for the travel buck. So we invited "elite" programs - a first for AMTA - that obviously several invitationals have now followed. If the field is strong enough, you can do what I did. We created "round robins" of four teams and saved time by not power-pairing the first three rounds. Then we had a hidden (or supposedly hidden) quarterfinal. Sunday morning was the semifinals. We tried to schedule scrimmages for teams that had been eliminated if they wanted to scrimmage.

After the semi, we had an "only what we can afford brunch."  Josh is right that Mom and probably my sister put some food together. (You hear no complaints from college students when they're sharing food together. (Stuff like institution sized cans of fruit cocktail cost little and go a long way. Borrow a couple of toasters and offer Dolly Madison thrift store bargains.) [If UWM was in session, I was thinking I'd find a service club and have them all report on Sunday morning. Then I'd have each team assigned to bring a different component for a salad bar. If they didn't want the hassle, they could pay us to pick up their lettuce or onions. The service club could have a great time peeling, chopping and serving - and everyone knows salad bars are warmly received every where.]

I thought I had a decent idea as to awards. I created a traveling trophy (which U of Minnesota holds) out of an ecletic array of old trophy parts. It only cost me the fee for an engraved plate. Like the old time debate tournaments, there was one and only one trophy. Beyond that, I went to Wal-Mart and bought loads and loads of picture frames. Trophies are expensive and become inconvenient. But with frames and a word processor, you can create attractive awards persinalized for the recipients.

On Saturday after the quarterfinal, I went and added names of student and school winners to the certificates I pre-prepared. I remember that Select II was the year of the Mount Everest case and I photocopied a National Geographic shot of Mount Everest as the background of the certificate.  A framed certificate with someone's name is at least as nice as a four inch trophy. The first year, I found some lenses in a science thrift store and glued them to the certificate glass with the colored AMTA Seal. Stuff like ribbon is cheap and dresses even the plainest certificate up.

Do I care if a recipient decided to use the frame for something other than the Select certificate? Naw. And Wal-Mart sells some pretty nice frames.

In conclusion, feel free to be creative and operate within your budget. The resilience of youth goes a long way and, as most have said here, the important thing in a mock trial tournament is the opportunity to mock trial.
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2004, 08:34:08 pm »
That is just plain sad.
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« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2004, 09:54:56 pm »
Quote from: jillyq




Not to turn this into an entirely off-topic post or anything, but I really don't think that Gonzaga is that uncivil...sure, we have our moments, as all mock trialers do, but most of the people I have had the privilige of working with in my two years competing at Gonzaga have been amazing, caring people...and, to turn this back on topic, good luck with your invitational AZ, I hope that you have the best of luck in creating an invitational that exemplifies the best of AMTA--good competition and good spirit.


Hi Jill! I actually kinda like you of allthe bulldogs. We have no problem with Gonzaga as a program. As soon as we receive an official apology on stationery for calling our beloved coach a bitch, all will be forgotten. Until then, I'll persist in thinking your teammates to be rude and poorly bred. :) But, I think post an apology all this nastiness could be avoided and we might even like each other!
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« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2004, 09:57:58 pm »
So desperate....lol
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« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2004, 10:01:06 pm »
Desperate to put such nastiness behind me? Absolutely. However, I will not compromise mine or my coaches honor for the sake of playing nice. She was accused of unfairness (which she wouldnt do) called a bitch, and otherwise maligned. As far as I'm concerned the offending loudmouth is lucky all we request is an apology.

I would never speak so imprudently of another team's coach. That's frightfully classless. But, Gonzaga can surprise you, like throwing my demonstrative on the ground during closing. *shrugs* but yet I am willing for forgive and forget.
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« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2004, 10:07:17 pm »
Wow....ok. POint taken.  
Which brings me to another point.  I think that if a school commits such a flagrant foul...such as that....there should be more strict penalties.  I mean....people will push the line, if it is unclear where the line is.  And if there are no penalties in place...who is to say what is right and what is wrong...besides common sense....which, clearly, some lack?
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« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2004, 10:42:35 pm »
*Waiting Patiently* I'll give you an address you can mail it to:

Make the letter out to:

Natasha Wrae and members of University of Arizona Mock Trial:
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« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2004, 10:53:05 pm »
Another on-topic suggestion.  If possible, provide coffee and some kind of breakfast type food before morning rounds.  The toughest thing about these tourneys is that my teams sometimes don't have time to eat before the morning rounds.  Even something as simple as a small bagel and a little cup of coffee can go a long way.  Also, boxed lunches like they did at Stetson I think are a great idea.
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« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2004, 10:53:51 pm »
There are some inexpensive trophy companies on the Internet with enormous selections.  So you can do trophies inexpensively without getting tacky.  I think our trophies looked very nice, and they were not too expensive at all.  

Challenge format is excellent.  The only problem with doing it face-to-face rather than in advance is that it takes time, and we wanted to move things quickly.  But if you've got the time, then you can do it at the opening ceremony.

Thanks for all the praise on the Columbia tournament.  We hope to do even better next year, and hope to have everyone back and maybe a few more.
 (pun intended)

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« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2004, 10:55:55 pm »
Made me wanna visit the Apple PC :) What weekend do you host?
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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2004, 11:24:32 am »
If we do it the same time again, it will be the second to last weekend in January, I believe -- the weekend before Loras and after Northwestern and Rhodes.  It's going to be a struggle to get the courthouse again because some of the teams did a real number on some of the courtrooms.  It's amazing how some students just absolutely don't give a crap.
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« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2004, 12:05:37 pm »
Quote from: princecaspian
If we do it the same time again, it will be the second to last weekend in January, I believe -- the weekend before Loras and after Northwestern and Rhodes.  It's going to be a struggle to get the courthouse again because some of the teams did a real number on some of the courtrooms.  It's amazing how some students just absolutely don't give a crap.


That's terrible.  As far as I know, we left the rooms in good shape.  Did teams leave food around and stuff?
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« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2004, 12:55:48 pm »
Quote from: princecaspian
If we do it the same time again, it will be the second to last weekend in January, I believe -- the weekend before Loras and after Northwestern and Rhodes.  It's going to be a struggle to get the courthouse again because some of the teams did a real number on some of the courtrooms.  It's amazing how some students just absolutely don't give a crap.


Ack...that'd kill us. :( Ok...bad date :)
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« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2004, 01:03:01 pm »
I'd say, on-topic, that a wonderful idea would be to have "tour guides" or "information desks" kinda splotched around at different points. The worst thing about being at a big school is not knowing your way around...and being late to trials simply because you had no CLUE where you were going is a really lame excuse. Every so often, have a "help" person with a nametag that can be easily identified that will tell you where you need to go. This can make a tournament run MUCH more smoothly. :)

Gah..bad memories of Yale...what a nightmare! We ducked our heads into secretaries offices to get directions!
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« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2004, 04:35:53 pm »
Quote from: MockinDiva


Gah..bad memories of Yale...what a nightmare! We ducked our heads into secretaries offices to get directions!


I sat in on a lecture...then realized that I had an opening to do.  LOL.
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