Nationals in St. Paul

[Tom]

Discussion that may be entertaining, but must be taken with a grain of salt.

no disagreements there

[Travis]

Oh hell, everything up here has to be taken with a grain of salt...or the shaker, whatever.  Hey Lucid, how do I get my new title?

[Tom]

as soon as you PM me and/or communicate to me in some form or fashion what you want the title to be.

[Travis]

hehe, I have to consult with someone, it'll be in the next couple of days though.

[JayZ]

First of all, your argument assumes that the competition comes from one giant pool of teams.  However, the teams are divided into regions.  As a result, when you create a national tournament and bring teams in from all different regions you augment the competition because you are now competing, not within a vast pool of contestants, but challenging respective regions.

Well, it essentially represents the same argument everyone's had with the NCAA tourney for two years now. Expanding the field will may incorporate more talented teams since some regions are deeper than their number of gold bids. For example, one region may have 5 national contender teams in it but only 3 bids, so 2 teams are left out. This is where the silver tourney comes into play, but that's still not entirely fair since now those 2 teams that didn't qualify have to go through another tourney and may not be as lucky this time and fail to make gold.

However, if the number of new bids are distributed equally among all regions, you'll also be drawing in extra teams from regions that just, well, aren't that talented, which whill lower the talent pool.

Really, it comes down to this: If you let more teams in, then instead of a tournemtn composed entirely of the top 3 or 4 teams from each region you'll be including teams that are 5th or 6th place talent in a region. Assuming all's fair, then you are deffinetly watering down the competition. Of course, mock trial is far from "all fair," but that's another argument.

[Travis]

Well, it essentially represents the same argument everyone's had with the NCAA tourney for two years now. Expanding the field will may incorporate more talented teams since some regions are deeper than their number of gold bids. For example, one region may have 5 national contender teams in it but only 3 bids, so 2 teams are left out.

They try to solve for that with the traveling power bids that are attached to certain programs.  But as someone, I don't remember who, pointed out, that doesn't always work so well...

[teragram]

speaking of st. paul... which hotel is everyone staying at? and which one's the closest to the university?

[NotComingHome]

i'm staying in my room in the dorms...and praying to god that i manage to either wake up or stay up and be on time in the mornings....this is a big concern for me  

[girl lost in paradise]

get a male (yes as in the sex that always thinks about sex) alarm clock.  they work great, all you have to do is say you'll serve them breakfast if they wake you up at ___ time.    



then give them a pop tart and say thank you!      

I know I know, I'm evil!

[NotComingHome]

uhoh, now we're gonna get into the "how girls are evil" conversation again!

hehehe your suggestion would probably work well though hmmmm...thinking...we'll see  


guess i'm evil too...

[Plymouth Djinn]

I think Nationals is a whole different ball of wax.  Much like the NCAA tournament teams that you wouldn't expect to step up, do.  I remember not to long ago facing a Furman team that said, I can't believe we just lost to Iowa.  Nobody considered us a power team, in fact we were considered the "fluff" round.  Not many teams knew about us and fortunately that year we had an influx of talent that has carried us the last four years.

Yeah, I wish we had hit 632, 488, 872, and along with 500 last year, but things happen. Gtown was good enough to go 7-1, and its not like the final round was a blow out.  Hopefully, this year we hit someone along the way that is good enough to meet everyone's standards.  These people did earn the right to come to Des Moines.  Those final two spots at the Legal Clinic are fair game for all when we arrive.  Luck and the subjectivity of the judges has a lot to do with it.  Who would have thought that Manchester would have dropped Drake?  That by the final round 872 would be out of it?

Until you have experienced the National Championship tournament yourself (and probably more than once) you may not understand.  It's not an invitational, its not regionals. It's the 72 hours that all of your hard work and dedication have been focused on all year.  So don't discount a team based on tradition b/c "Iowa" didn't mean shit four years ago.

[Keirce]

Are you all Jeckls and Hydes? (Don't answer, Shepherdess!)

::biting my tongue, as ordered, Sir!::

Nationals is at least 50% luck.  Okay, Trial most of the time, from invitationals on is at least 50% luck.  But this is just especially true at Nationals, where the pool is so massive.  Whether it be bad luck and you're thrown into the deep end or good luck and you get to wade in the kiddie pool, half of what you do there is beyond your personal control.  This is why I love seeing teams who do well acknowledging that they got lucky in some respects instead of hawking it all upon their talent.  This is also why I generally tend not to discuss any of my past teams' records...yeah, so you have a cute title sometimes, but in the end, those titles don't always credit your talent, just as lack of titles doesn't always mean you suck.  That's just how this whole thing works.

[JhawkRyan7]

Amen to that Neal.....and who knows what April will have in store for us all........

[ArizonaMock]

I REALLY want to clarify a point I made. I still stand by my argument that a field of 64 deludes the talent pool.

However, did Iowa have a cakewalk to the national title? Hell no. I can do the math, calculate an SOO and see their opponents records. I listed their opponents incorrectly because I was in a hurry (right before work), yet even with the adjusted lists there is still a point to consider: Did they hit who all of you agree to be the "true power programs"? I don't know. Mr. Faulconer, it's  our first year, and we're not in a position to make such an assesment. But based on the feelings of the posters here, and who they believe to be AMTA elites....they did not.

All I'm saying is that their schedule, while I'm certain was difficult, and every win was hard earned, was probably not as difficult as the schedules found at Bellarmine, Blues City, or any of the other bloodbath style tournies. Why are those schedules harder? Because there are fewer teams, and even the 16th place team, is a top 20 finisher at nationals.

That said, is their more honor in a 64 team national championship than in winning Blues City? I honestly can't say...I've never been, and may never be. But logic says, probably not.

That's why I made the statement that Iowa has clearly proven themselves in the invitational season this year. From everything I can gether, the hawkeyes are exceptional mockers, fierce, dedicated competitors and genuinely great people. However, the point I was trying to make was not that "their" national championship was less valuable than others, but rather that a 64 team field probably allows for some "weaker" competition.

So please, DO NOT, misconstrue my point. I mean only the greatest respect toward Iowa in saying this, it's merely an example.

[ArizonaMock]

I think Nationals is a whole different ball of wax.  Much like the NCAA tournament teams that you wouldn't expect to step up, do.  I remember not to long ago facing a Furman team that said, I can't believe we just lost to Iowa.  Nobody considered us a power team, in fact we were considered the "fluff" round.  Not many teams knew about us and fortunately that year we had an influx of talent that has carried us the last four years.

Yeah, I wish we had hit 632, 488, 872, and along with 500 last year, but things happen. Gtown was good enough to go 7-1, and its not like the final round was a blow out.  Hopefully, this year we hit someone along the way that is good enough to meet everyone's standards.  These people did earn the right to come to Des Moines.  Those final two spots at the Legal Clinic are fair game for all when we arrive.  Luck and the subjectivity of the judges has a lot to do with it.  Who would have thought that Manchester would have dropped Drake?  That by the final round 872 would be out of it?

Until you have experienced the National Championship tournament yourself (and probably more than once) you may not understand.  It's not an invitational, its not regionals. It's the 72 hours that all of your hard work and dedication have been focused on all year.  So don't discount a team based on tradition b/c "Iowa" didn't mean shit four years ago.

It is what it is. I'm not taking that away from you. You won. Period. You beat everyone they threw up against you and you won. End of story. No matter what anyone says about your schedule (and I'm not the first on this board..or by far the meanest), you won. You beat teams, that beat other teams, that beat other teams. You beat the people who beat everyone else. That means you're the champs. No need to defend yourselves.