Question about revealing tabs.

[AlexOnFyre]

As a coach is it more prudent to hide the tabs of each round from your team until the end of the tourney, or to let them know how they are doing? Why?

[FundamentalPrecepts]

My response is that it depends on the composition of your team. Some people will respond well, for example, if their team is 4-2 going into the last round and will advance by taking both ballots. Others might get nervous and not perform to their potential.

[Nur Rauch]

I personally hate not knowing the scores. I stress over trying to decide if we won or lost close matches or if we lost to judges against a poor team.

[Will181198]

As a coach I've gone about this both ways....I tend to agree with FundamentalPrecepts in that it depends a lot on the make up of your team.  I've changed my policy from year to year at Regionals depending on how I've seen the team react at Invites throughout the year.  While some people will respond well to knowing they did well, others will become depressed at losing a round they thought they won and not perform as well.  In some cases the opposite can be true.

Personally I like not telling them because it keeps them working hard all weekend no matter what.  When you think about it knowing the scores can't change the outcome so what does it matter if they know right away or wait till the end of the weekend.  Theoretically it shouldn't matter what the record is the team should go into the round just as hard in Round 4 as Round 1 whether they are 6-0 or 0-6.

[phathom]

I can never resist looking! I feel that the team should know what we are facing and who, and how we did... heck sometimes I will even tell them how many ballots the other team got 

[starrydecisus]

Last year, my coach told us after every round, and this year, she hasn't told us at all.  Personally, I find that not knowing is ultimately better!  For example, knowing you're 6-0 going into the last round against the only other 6-0 team is nerve-wracking.  It can also be very upsetting to hear that you lost ballots you felt that you won, which can (and has) affected performances in the other rounds.  Plus, I can tell you that if you are doing well, it makes for one amazing award ceremony when you don't know.

Although I spend a majority of "down" time between rounds guessing as to how we're doing, I still find it in the best interest of my team at least to not know!  As my coach says, every round should be treated as a championship round!

 

[Argumentative]

I am going to have to agree with starrydecisus, and that has nothing to do with the fact that we have the same coach.  I just think it does more harm then good to know.  The only catch is I would really like to know if I was 0-6 going into the last round.  But other then that, I get psyched for every round because I have no idea if we are facing a 0-win team, a .500 team or an undefeated team.

[phathom]

I am going to have to agree with starrydecisus, and that has nothing to do with the fact that we have the same coach.  I just think it does more harm then good to know.  The only catch is I would really like to know if I was 0-6 going into the last round.  But other then that, I get psyched for every round because I have no idea if we are facing a 0-win team, a .500 team or an undefeated team.

We at Upstate are at the cutting edge of Mocktrial Techniques... Lets just say we have a special battle plan for a round if we are 0-6... Fortunately we have not gotten to use it yet... but it would be the greatest Mocktrial experience of your lives 

[Nur Rauch]

We at Upstate are at the cutting edge of Mocktrial Techniques... Lets just say we have a special battle plan for a round if we are 0-6... Fortunately we have not gotten to use it yet... but it would be the greatest Mocktrial experience of your lives 

If we are 0-6 with you guys going into the last round at Golds, Morris would be honored to share the experience. At the risk of giving too much away ahead of time, we're talking about a very special Dr. Lynn Montana whose explanation of in vitro fertilization will leave you questioning the nature of free will and what it means to be human.

[aowwv5]

It's good to know that we're not the only ones with an 0-6 plan.   

[phathom]

If we are 0-6 with you guys going into the last round at Golds, Morris would be honored to share the experience. At the risk of giving too much away ahead of time, we're talking about a very special Dr. Lynn Montana whose explanation of in vitro fertilization will leave you questioning the nature of free will and what it means to be human.

We will match your Montanna with a Campbell that foams at the mouth and doesn't understand words with more than two syllables... He is often found randomly screaming for no reason
Oh and don't forget that Dr. Rubenstien who uses his handy pet rock to compare Bobbi Campbell with

[kclaw]

I'm glad to hear that my squad has a 0-6 plan.  I hope that they won't need it!  Will they, aowwv5?

[AHaefner]

As a competitor, I would much rather know. Even if we have no chance at placing, I would rather know where we stand to know what we're facing. As far as 0-6, I have my ideas and will never use them, as I value my life more than the look on my coach's face if I ever said some of the things I would find highly amusing. . . .

[mtaddict]

Let's be real... everyone has an 0-6 plan.

Some are more shocking and appalling than others, sure... but we all have them up our sleeves.  The kind that make coaches want to cry and scream "Lord! WHY ME?!"

Nur, I'm exquisitely curious to know what that Montana explanation is... do tell us after your national round!

The problem with 0-6 plans, is they are so fun... so tempting.... you almost want to do it... look for it in two weeks! 

[AlexOnFyre]

Is it nerdy that I wanted to respond to this thread with:
"Objection, Relevance"
but seriously, we transferred our 0-6 plan to Bye Buster plan, so it isn't so tempting.

[arandomguy]

It's good to know that we're not the only ones with an 0-6 plan.   

Oh yeah. Hamline has one too. In fact before last round at regionals I asked my coach if we were 0-6, because we were going to use it if we were.

As for the topic, I prefer not knowing. I spend almost all my time between rounds when I'm not stuffing my face with the nearest available source of nutrition (or lack thereof) speculating as to the tab results. And it drives my teammates crazy all the speculating I do. Turns out though, my speculations generally tend to be fairly accurate much of the time.

I think knowing would be discouraging. There is some element of stress in not knowing, but that stress is shared for all 3 rounds after round 1, and does not really increase or decrease depending on the round and the pairings. For example if, going into the fourth round, you're speculating as to whether you are 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, 5-1, or 6-0, you're likely to, at least subconsciously, give your all in the round because you don't know whether it matters or not (but who wants to take that chance?).

I think it's best to leave teams guessing and speculating, though I WOULD tell them if they were 0-6, but beyond that, I wouldn't reveal a thing. When I try to get information from our coach she just says "you guys are doing excellent, and you need to take both ballots in your next round."

That's the most vague statement ever. Unless you're 0-6, taking both ballots in your next round will ALWAYS be helpful.

At any rate, I prefer not knowing.

I DO however, like to look at comment sheets immediately following the round if we get them back (if they go back to tab, there's nothing you can do about it).

[Haskins]

I think it's best to leave teams guessing and speculating, though I WOULD tell them if they were 0-6, but beyond that, I wouldn't reveal a thing. When I try to get information from our coach she just says "you guys are doing excellent, and you need to take both ballots in your next round."

That's exactly what our coach tells us. "Just win both ballots next round." Honestly, part of the fun of mock trial is speculating what your standing is after the first day. While not knowing won't really affect someone's performance, knowing you are 4-2 or 2-2 might have an adverse effect.

[KhoyaY]

I also think that it is beneficial to know where your team stands.  Knowing where my team stands helps my teammates and I focus on the next round.  If we know that we're doing well we fell more confident.  This is important, I think...going up against a really good team the next round.  It helps your team get ready.

[Nonsensical]

Our 0-6 plan last year was pretty funny.  It pretty much involved Polson and Haskins and a lot of inappropriate innuendos.  Oh yeah--our opening and closing were going to be in song form. 

[JACGW]

I also think that it is beneficial to know where your team stands.  Knowing where my team stands helps my teammates and I focus on the next round.  If we know that we're doing well we fell more confident.  This is important, I think...going up against a really good team the next round.  It helps your team get ready.

As a competitor, I was almost never told the outcome of rounds until after the awards ceremony. As a coach, the only time I reveal to teams how they're doing is if/when they need to know for Round 3 flips. Otherwise, I follow a strict policy of not revealing to teams their record during a tournament. It does not and should not matter what a team's record is: the goal of every round is to win both ballots; focusing on the current record is nothing but a distraction.

I quoted KhoyaY's comment here because I think it highlights my point well. "If we know that we're doing well, we fe[e]l more confident." Doesn't that mean that if you know you're doing poorly, you feel less confident? Or if you don't know at all, you don't feel any more or less confident? Frankly, displaying confidence will get you points and help your scores -- but will your team only take advantage of those points if you believe that you're doing well? Seems silly to hand those points to your Round 3 opponent, just because a judge dropped you back in Round 1 and your team is feeling less confident.

Perhaps it's just because I never knew the outcome when I started doing this stuff many many many years ago....but it seems to me that most teams/students are ill-equipped to handle knowing their record. And as a coach, I try to exclude distractions to the team and keep them focused on the next round. I think not revealing the tab is a good policy for most teams.

[Haskins]

Our 0-6 plan last year was pretty funny.  It pretty much involved Polson and Haskins and a lot of inappropriate innuendos.  Oh yeah--our opening and closing were going to be in song form. 

If we are 0-6, the team, that faces us can expect our entire case to resemble a musical. You can expect us to be skipping and dancing when we come into the courtroom. And lots of references to the Woodcock-Johnson test.

[Argumentative]

Plus the 0-6 cross of Kiko Ash basically being an attempt to quote Quentin Tarantino movies for about 10 minutes.

[mtaddict]

Has anyone ever gotten to use the 0-6 plan?  That's the important question.

As for the topic... we never get to know our tab results.  I remember freshman year, that at a tournament, our coach hadn't told us our results.  Before the 4th round, he looked at us, and was like "how do you think you've done" and we figured roughly 4-2, 3-3.  And he's tells us we were way off and that we were 0-6 (we were too young to even DREAM of an 0-6 plan).
Telling us that had lit a fire under us to kill the team 4th round.  It had also allowed us to think we were doing better, and have some confidence previous.
I am against knowing tab results before awards.  I do like it if we can score a look at the comments though

[Nonsensical]

If we are 0-6, the team, that faces us can expect our entire case to resemble a musical. You can expect us to be skipping and dancing when we come into the courtroom. And lots of references to the Woodcock-Johnson test.

Way to be a copy-cat.     My song selection is better than yours.  Don't think it stops at objections either.  I have about a 25 page list as to what we were going to do last year with Haskins.  Too funny.

[mocksluzer]

I think it absolutely has to do with the particular team. I think my team responds rather well whether we hear that we're doing well, or not doing well at all. Going into 3rd round at Loras we heard we were 3-0-1 and hitting Princeton, of course we were nervous and had one of the closest-fought rounds I've ever participated in. Hearing that we picked up both ballots after that round energized in an entirely new way after a long day, and long tournament, and we used that energy in the last round. I think our team is able to handle it well, mostly because we don't ever anticipate hearing that we're 0-6, if you're confident enough beforehand, then hearing the scores shouldn't, and doesn't matter. If that's the case, then what's the harm in hearing how you're doing? That's how I feel, and my team as well.

[Popki4]

Haskins- there will be no singing, nor any dancing at the upcoming regional.... (a) you never discussed this with your team, and (b) you should spend the round trying to figure out a way to get back home after I (as coach) leave without you due to your stellar 0-6 performance.

As for the topic- I was not told as a competitor, I don't usually tell as a coach.  I have at one invitational, this year, and though the 3rd round (after I told) was very good (x2 teams), we went from the top two teams on one side-constrained sides to 8th and 15th.... so my competitors shouldn't expect to know.  the truth I is you are 3-3, 4-2, or 5-1 going into rd 4, your rank is irrelevant.  Win as many ballots as you can, one round at a time, and you will find success.

[Haskins]

Way to be a copy-cat.     My song selection is better than yours.  Don't think it stops at objections either.  I have about a 25 page list as to what we were going to do last year with Haskins.  Too funny.

I'm sorry if our 0-6 plan is very similar to yours. If it's any consolation, we won't be singing as much as dancing. 

Haskins- there will be no singing, nor any dancing at the upcoming regional.... (a) you never discussed this with your team, and (b) you should spend the round trying to figure out a way to get back home after I (as coach) leave without you due to your stellar 0-6 performance.

Just because you are our coach doesn't mean you know all of the team's plans.  This was discussed at the last tournament. But of course we won't ever get a chance to use it... you can expect singing and dancing once the rounds are over however.

Anyway, back to the topic. My advice is to let them know how they are doing at a small invitational and see how they compete in the last rounds as a result. Don't start telling them their rank at regionals. And if you do let them know how they are doing, it's good to make sure everyone on the team wants to know. A few might beg, like I do, but it's okay to be a jerk like my coach is sometimes. It is pretty sweet at the awards ceremony to get a trophy you weren't expecting.

[Golden Skull]

One thing to keep in mind for team plans like that -- though fun to talk about before the tournament, they are really disrespectful to the judges who have volunteered their time to come and be a part of the tournament.

Reminds me of the old high school theater days when kids planned pranks for the final show.  Our directors would always try to impress on us that the audience isn't here to see our pranks or inside jokes, and that every audience deserved our best show.

[Rane]

What I've come to realize is that you can choose not to tell your team. But you can't keep the girls in the bathroom from talking. We choose not to disclose results and someone who was a member of the host team at this regional told one of our freshman girls(while in the restroom) how we were doing. Granted this was only after round 1, but still aggravating nonetheless.

[Bearlylegal]

Our program is student run, so if the student leaders decide the team should know the scores, we have no right to keep it from them. In a few years past several students have asked not to know their team's record, but people would slip up and tell them so often we now just tell everyone. That is what we did when I competed, as well.

I think students are mature enough to know their own records, and whatever the truth is, they should be able to deal with it. Particularly since they should be putting on their best case no matter what, except maybe for the 0-6.

On which note, I will give automatic tens if I see any team in the fourth round who does one of the following:
1. Flawless iambic pentameter for an entire exam/speech.
2. Speech / both sides of an examination as a long series of proper haiku.
3. Pig latin, but only for examinations and only if both attorney and witness use it consistently, including objections.
4. Effective "charades"-style cross examination.
5. Turns "Yes, they deserved to die, and I hope they burn in Hell!" into an effective theme or demonstrative title.

Not that score is the issue, but still, it's always nice to win.

[KingsfieldNot]

Has anyone ever gotten to use the 0-6 plan?  That's the important question.

At least once to my knowledge.  And it wasn't pretty.  Two squads both knew they were out of the running in R4 at Regionals  a few years back.  I think one was 0-6 and the other was somewhere close.  Fortunately, their judges were a coach and a former mocker.  After openings and, as I recall, the testimony of a witness who decided to lie on the floor during direct, the presider (my assistant coach at the time) read them the riot act and explained that an outside volunteer judge likely would not appreciate giving up a Sunday to watch that sort of c**p. 

I agree with those who wrote above that, while it is fun to plan this sort of thing, mockers should think long and hard before actually dropping to that level.  It's hard enough getting attorneys to volunteer on Sundays.  Our chances of doing so improve when they see students performing at their best, not the other way around.

As for the topic of the thread . . . it's one of the most difficult decisions I make each year, as the students nearly always ask (or even beg) for results.  I have given in on occasion, but it rarely pays off.   

This year, for example, after a highly disappointing R2 & R3, I knew my students would have little motivation on Sunday had they been aware of their ballots.  When our new Dean (and potential source of financial support) told me he would be observing R4, I was glad to be able to tell the students "regardless of where you stand in terms of wins & losses, this round matters a great deal in terms of our funding.  You need to put on your best round now." 

To their credit, they stepped up and did it.  Sure, they were heartbroken to later learn that even with those wins they were out of the running for Nationals.  But they were at least able to say that they had done someting positive for the future of the program.

As others have noted, it does little good to know you are winning, as you should already be motivated to win the next round.  Knowing that you tanked that last round does nothing to improve your confidence.  Knowing that you are out of contention for a bid is even worse.  Better to be in the dark, IMHO.

[Blackbird]

I, personally, think it's better to keep students in the dark.

However...

As the co-head of a student-run program, it's hard to do that.  Generally our policy has been to have the Captains of the teams competing at the tournament meet beforehand, and agree on a consistent policy.  At times, we've not told them whether we've won or lost or shown ballots.  More recently though, we've taken a policy where we tell people whether or not we won, and delay showing the team the ballots until people have had a few days to decompress and put some distance between themselves and the tournament.

Regarding the 0-6 debate: we've had teams in our program go 0-6 (thankfully, only twice in our history, that I know of), and the most recent time this happened, I was on the sidelines coaching.  The Captains of that team were telling their team the score, and they were pretty upset obviously, but rather than do some crazy "0-6 plan," they channeled their disappointment constructively, and put on a great fourth round, which they won.

I think it's far more constructive, at an educational and morale level, to get your team to put on their best performance round four and have a chance to win, rather than put on an "0-6" plan.