Waukegan OCRS

[Nur Rauch]

It's on in case no one's noticed -- and so are some other super's, for that matter. The first round was last night; next starts in an hour and 45 minutes.

[xavier86]

What's happening so far?

[Nur Rauch]

So far we've seen U-Michigan, Loyola, and U-Illinois. Every round's been pretty damn close.

[arandomguy]

Some interesting 2nd and 3rd round pairings - didn't stay for 4th round pairings.

2nd round, 1440 hit 1268, 1454 hit 1146, and 1253 hit 1267. Can't remember who 1441 and 1147 hit.

3rd round, 1253 hit 1147, 1454 hit 1440, 1268 hit 1441, while 1267 hit 1146.

So far my team has seen Carleton 1421, Northwestern 1267, and Michigan 1147. Collin do you have 4th round pairings? If you do, and you don't mind, can you PM them to me?

[Nur Rauch]

All I know is that we're defense and hitting Loras tomorrow. Sorry Graham.

[xavier86]

If you know that far in advanced couldn't you just do witness selection the day before? It's not amta supervises witness selection.

[arandomguy]

I suppose, but only i you could find the other teams captains. Chances are neither team would want to though, for strategic reasons. If you think your team stands a chance of stealing a call, why would you give another team a full night to prepare their contingency witness, when you could wait and give that team a full 30 minutes to prepare that same witness the next day?

Plus there would be potentially difficult situations. What if they sleep on it, and decide they want to call another witness in the morning at captains? What do you do then?

In short, though it is perhaps possible to do something like that, I don't see any legitimate reason to do so. It might be nice to have all night to prepare your contingency witness, but at the expense of allowing the other side the same opportunity, I don't see it being worth it.

[sills]

Just heard some news from Waukegan

Northwestern went first and second.
Two Michigan teams qualified
One Northwood team.

That's all I've heard so far.

N-Dub represent.

[Nur Rauch]

1. Northwestern
2. Northwestern
3. Michigan
4. Minnesota-Morris(*)
5. Michigan
6. Northwood


* WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

[12 yr old prodigy]

congrats!

[Rane]

Congrats Collin!  Even if you did misspell "ORCS" as "OCRS" for the purpose of this thread. Good luck in Des Moines!

[MizzouMock]

OUTSTANDING TRIAL TEAMS
Bids to the 2009 National Intercollegiate Championship Mock Trial Tournament
Des Moines, Iowa, April 17-19, 2009
Team 1267, Northwestern University, 7.5
Team 1268, Northwestern University, 7
Team 1146, University of Michigan, 6.5
Team 1186, University of Minnesota Morris, 6, head-to-head win (CS 18)
Team 1147, University of Michigan, 6, head-to-head loss (CS 14)
Team 1440, Northwood University, 5.5

Honorable Mention Trial Teams
Team 1052, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, 5, CS 17
Team 1001, Loyola University Chicago, 5, CS 16
Team 1441, Northwood University, 5, CS 16
Team 1002, Loyola University Chicago, 5, CS 13.5

SPIRIT OF AMTA AWARD
Awarded to the team that best exemplifies the ideals of honesty, civility, and fair play
Team 1267, Northwestern University, 30 points

Honorable Mention
Team 1010, St. Olaf College, 27 points, rank order 4
Team 1441, Northwood University, 27 points, rank order 4
Team 1573, Loras College, 27 points, rank order 6

OUTSTANDING ATTORNEYS
20-Δ, Alex Jarrell, Team 1267, Northwestern University

19-Δ, Philip Ehrlich, Team 1454, The University of Chicago
19-Π, Ed Hirsch, Team 1004, University of Wisconsin-Superior
19-Π, Marcell Taylor, Team 1097, DePaul University
19-Π, Collin Tierney, Team 1186, University of Minnesota Morris

18-Π, Jonathan Hartsfield, Team 1440, Northwood University
18-Π, Gracie Ogilby, Team 1420, Carleton College

17-Π, Jennifer Berman, Team 1268, Northwestern University
17-Π, Marc Gibson, Team 1597, Lake Forest College
17-Π, Danielle Gonzalez, Team 1597, Lake Forest College
17-Δ, Dana Hoffman, Team 1253, Hamline University
17-Δ, Prava Palacharla, Team 1051, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
17-Δ, Dale Torbert, Team 1441, Northwood University

OUTSTANDING WITNESSES
19-Π, Natalie Chan, Team 1267, Northwestern University
19-Δ, Erin Dittmer, Team 1052, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
19-Δ, Tara Garcia-Matthewson, Team 1267, Northwestern University

18-Π, Cali Cope-Kasten, Team 1089, Macalester College
18-Π, Emily Koza, Team 1052, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
18-Π, Christine Murphy, Team 1001, Loyola University Chicago

17-Π and 17-Δ, Stephen Bowie, Team 1146, University of Michigan
17-Δ, Leah Hocking, Team 1573, Loras College
17-Δ, Danielle Hodges, Team 1440, Northwood University
17-Δ, Gracie Ogilby, Team 1420, Carleton College
17-Π, Bryce Rucker, Team 1441, Northwood University
17-Δ, Amy Sun, Team 1421, Carleton College
17-Δ, Erica Westrich, Team 1001, Loyola University Chicago

[F. Gustavo]

Wow -- Northwestern dominated. First and second place is awesome. And another spirit of amta award to boot. I think that's six tournaments they have won now.

Richmond and Northwestern seem to be dark horses. I can't wait to see what the favorites Columbia, UCLA, NYU, and Bellarmine do at ORCS.

[octoberist]

I used to compete in the same region as Northwestern and my team and I always had fun going against them. Good to see that they're kicking some ridiculous ass. Lots of new talent it seems - I've seen quite a few individual awards from Alex Jarrel and Jennifer Berman this year.

Wonder how they'll do at nationals against the stalwarts - Iowa, Virginia, NYU (I'm making an assumption here), etc.

[theChosenOne]

Wow -- Northwestern dominated. First and second place is awesome. And another spirit of amta award to boot. I think that's six tournaments they have won now.

Richmond and Northwestern seem to be dark horses. I can't wait to see what the favorites Columbia, UCLA, NYU, and Bellarmine do at ORCS.

I would expect all 4 of those teams to have their A and B teams going to nationals. Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of those schools have their A and B teams go 1-2 at ORCS.

[Quotequeen]

I would expect all 4 of those teams to have their A and B teams going to nationals.

That will be pretty difficult for Columbia since they only have one team in ORCS.

[theChosenOne]

Good point. Well my expectations of UCLA, Bellarmine, and NYU still stand. I don't know what I would do if neither of those 3 made it to nationals. My Mock trial world would be blown.

[Rane]

I think too many of these ORCS are too tough to be able to say any program will be able to send their A and B team hands down. The way I see it, there are no clear-cut top teams out of any of these ORCS, and choosing the 6 best is already tough enough. One tough draw can drop a top 6 team out of the race, as we have seen that 6-2 does not guarantee the earning of a bid to the National Championship.

[theChosenOne]

I disagree ROD, with the huge exception of Harvard, there are clear top teams in most of the ORCS.

[mocksluzer]

First off, you really gotta learn the appropriate shorthand for my sn, its Rane .

I get confused every single time someone calls you "ROD" !

[Rane]

I disagree ROD, with the huge exception of Harvard, there are clear top teams in most of the ORCS.

So young, so naive . Agree to disagree I guess, I could not pick a single top team from any tournament, and I've seen most of the presumed "top teams" and I couldn't pick the best of them. But that is just my point of view.

[theChosenOne]

So RANE, you're telling me that you can't look at Irvine and say UCLA is the best team there, or Greenville and say Furman is the best there or Memphis and say that Bellarmine is the best there? Despite NYU's loss to Columbia at regionals could you still not say that NYU wasn't the best team at Hamilton?

[Rane]

I ABSOLUTELY can NOT say that UCLA was the best team at Irvine. UCLA has an amazing history, and they are still very, very strong. And I pretty much love their team to death as well, but they are no longer hands down the best team on the West Coast.

Reasons why UCLA is no longer the hands-down best program on the west coast:
1.) The West grew up. Look at how many programs are being born in the West Coast (Irvine, Scripps, UCSD, Washington, CMC - If I remember correctly they are fairly young too?). There is a much stiffer competition out there now then there used to be.
2.) I'm a results guy, I like to see results before I claim someone is the best. Who took the tournament out in Irvine? That's right, Cal.
3.) Which programs out in the west had to turn down two bids (i.e. All 4 teams from their programs qualified), I really don't care to list them. If I did, however, UCLA would not be on that list.

Conclusion:
With the likes of Cal, Irvine, Claremont McKenna, Stanford, ASU, USC, Redlands, UCSD, Washington, UCLA has some competition. Look back at that list and there are 5 youngish programs, 2 first year programs. I would already match Irvine up against UCLA  as one of the best programs in the West. Cal is a given, they have proved all year long that they are a program to be reckoned with. I competed against Claremont McKenna and would not be afraid to put them up against UCLA A.

With all that being said, I LOVE UCLA. They are a tremendous team. But you TRULY underestimate the rest of the west if you think they are the hands-down best team of the West Coast. You would make the same mistake putting NYU over Columbia (so far both teams are 2-2 against each other when it counts).

As far as the other teams, Furman, still a great program, but there are going to be a lot of great programs in Greenville. I don't think Furman will finish 8-0 with a PD of +80. I do think they'll qualify.

Bellarmine is fantastic, I am being honest when I say that is the team that scares me the most in Memphis. But I think it would be far too presumptuous to claim that they are the best there. There are still lots of good teams.

How many of these teams that you are claiming to be the best in their ORCS have you seen btw? How many of the teams competing with them have you seen? I've seen damn near every team that was in Irvine this weekend, I've seen less of the others, but I've seen enough to stick by my statements.

EDIT: I am aware that Cal took the tournament based on CS and the 7-1 teams were Cal, and UCLA A and B. But if there are two 7-1 teams at the end of round 4 in the national tournament,  the team given the go-ahead to compete in the final round is also determined by CS. My point is only to show there is more competition for the best team, then is being accredited by TCO.

[IRockTheMock]

i would say that UCLA is by far ONE of the best in the west, right there at the top, absolutely. but the one and only BEST team out there? eh, no i think Cal and UC Irvine are up there too, if not better. we (ASU) faced UCLA A in our last round at ORCS and we split with them. and while they were definitely great and it was indeed a fantastic round, i thought UC Irvine A was actually better.

[IRockTheMock]

and just for the record, Cal won the Irvine ORCS because we took a ballot from UCLA A in the final round otherwise they would have won and been undefeated... so yeah, there's alot of other super great teams in the west other than just UCLA

[mossgathered]

What was the name of that other western team that is sending two to Des Moines... oh wait...


I've caught myself over the past few years falling victim to wanting to come up with a reason for UCLA isn't the best in our area.  And it's totally understandable and easy to do.... if they're the best in the west, then I'm not and that makes me feel less about myself.  But competing in their shadow you have to eventually come to the realization, they're one of the best in the nation- let alone the west.  Take solace in that you are losing to the best.

[No Time]

Which team is Irvine A -- who is on that team?  Did they compete at the Downtown this year?

[theChosenOne]

I don't even know what to say that . I am in no way discounting the other teams in those super regionals. I know that anyone can lose on any given day. I was just trying to say that there have to be clear favorites in just about every super regional. You can say that I'm wrong, as you have, and also have the evidence to back it up, as you have, but I was merely giving my opinion. Think of it like this. If you had to pick one team in Hamilton, Irvine, Memhis and Easton to win before the ORCS began, Are you telling me you wouldn't pick NYU, UCLA, Bellarmine, and Harvard? You can obviously point out what happened to Harvard, but in the spirit of just picking favorites, would you not agree? Think of it as if you were placing 20 dollar bets on one team to place in the top 6. That's my point, it wasn't to discount other teams and say the ORC wasn't tough.

[IRockTheMock]

Irvine A has Marisa Oxman, Shima Gorgani, Brisa Simmons, Ben Larson...and yes, i believe they did go to the Downtown invitational, though i can't be 100% certain because our team was not there...they are a fantastic team, very clean, very polished. we scrimmaged them the Friday night before ORCS and i honestly felt they were better than UCLA A, who we saw in our final round. i agree that UCLA is superb, and yes, when I think of the best teams out here in the west, they of course are at the top, but i believe UC Irvine really is up to par with them as well....

[Rane]

What was the name of that other western team that is sending two to Des Moines... oh wait...


I've caught myself over the past few years falling victim to wanting to come up with a reason for UCLA isn't the best in our area.  And it's totally understandable and easy to do.... if they're the best in the west, then I'm not and that makes me feel less about myself.  But competing in their shadow you have to eventually come to the realization, they're one of the best in the nation- let alone the west.  Take solace in that you are losing to the best.

True. But to be fair, and maybe I was alone on this.  I felt that Irvine was going to be such a bloodbath, that for any of the programs to be able to qualify both of their teams they were going to need to be lucky. I felt there were a couple of programs with two teams strong enough to send both at a less competitive tournament.

and TCO. My point is that I cannot pick out the best team from any of the ORCS which is what you were asking. I have favorites, and they may be some of the teams listed, they may not be.

[BruinPrince]

The fact that this conversation is even being had is quite flattering.  Nobody at UCLA can deny the strength of the west.  Just like college basketball and football, the west doesn't gets nearly enough love.

It is undeniable that UCI and Berkeley are two of the best teams on the west coast... and the nation, for that matter.  This is actually one of my biggest frustrations with the new 4th round pairing system.  Any other year our team would have had the opportunity to face both UCI and Berkeley at regionals and ORCS.  I don't care about finding out who's "the best in the west"; I just want to be able to go against the best teams there are and now there's little to no chance of being able to see them this year. 

However, this frustration is mitigated by the high quality of opposition we got from ASU in the 4th round.  They were fantastic.  So... just for the record, IRockTheMock, you guys were great and a ton of fun to go against.   

[IRockTheMock]

BruinPrince---touche!! we absolutely loved going up against you guys! what a fun round! we have been wanting to hit your A team for awhile, and that was probably one of the most exciting and competitive rounds we have been in all year. you guys were fantastic, just as we knew you would be after everything we had heard. we hope to face you guys again at some point!

[Irvine.Coach]

Is there really even a question that UCLA remains the class of the west coast? 

With apologies to my alma mater Berkeley, and with pride in my Anteaters, let's face the facts.  In 2009, UCLA's A team is 35-3-2 with victories against several consensus top-10 teams; their "B" team is 32-8 with 4 top-four finishes and one tournament victory; and their "C" team is 20-4.  This weekend, they were the only school to qualify two teams to the Championship and it wasn't exactly a photo finish -- both UCLA teams had two more wins than the line of teams tied for sixth.  Yes, with teams like ASU and Claremont joining USC, Berkeley and Stanford, the west coast has gotten better and deeper.  But you can't be the champ until you beat the champ and -- to my knowledge -- no west coast team has ever taken both ballots from a stacked UCLA A team, and that dates back through 2003. 

Congratulations to Gonzalo, Steve, Mike, Keith and the rest of the Bruin force on another impressive showing.

[GhostofTomJoad]

But you can't be the champ until you beat the champ and -- to my knowledge -- no west coast team has ever taken both ballots from a stacked UCLA A team, and that dates back through 2003. 

That's quite the statistic.  I have to agree, I find UCLA to be the best on this coast.  I did not hit them this year, but I know many of the members of their A team personally, and have seen them over the last two years.  I hit Berekely A this year, and while they were extraordinarily talented, I don't think they can match the Bruins this year.  UCLA has an absurd amount of talent, as shown by their records in the spring for their top three teams.  Irvine and Berekely are good, but UCLA is still the best in the west.