Waukegan OCRS

[Quotequeen]

I would expect all 4 of those teams to have their A and B teams going to nationals.

That will be pretty difficult for Columbia since they only have one team in ORCS.

[theChosenOne]

Good point. Well my expectations of UCLA, Bellarmine, and NYU still stand. I don't know what I would do if neither of those 3 made it to nationals. My Mock trial world would be blown.

[Rane]

I think too many of these ORCS are too tough to be able to say any program will be able to send their A and B team hands down. The way I see it, there are no clear-cut top teams out of any of these ORCS, and choosing the 6 best is already tough enough. One tough draw can drop a top 6 team out of the race, as we have seen that 6-2 does not guarantee the earning of a bid to the National Championship.

[theChosenOne]

I disagree ROD, with the huge exception of Harvard, there are clear top teams in most of the ORCS.

[mocksluzer]

First off, you really gotta learn the appropriate shorthand for my sn, its Rane .

I get confused every single time someone calls you "ROD" !

[Rane]

I disagree ROD, with the huge exception of Harvard, there are clear top teams in most of the ORCS.

So young, so naive . Agree to disagree I guess, I could not pick a single top team from any tournament, and I've seen most of the presumed "top teams" and I couldn't pick the best of them. But that is just my point of view.

[theChosenOne]

So RANE, you're telling me that you can't look at Irvine and say UCLA is the best team there, or Greenville and say Furman is the best there or Memphis and say that Bellarmine is the best there? Despite NYU's loss to Columbia at regionals could you still not say that NYU wasn't the best team at Hamilton?

[Rane]

I ABSOLUTELY can NOT say that UCLA was the best team at Irvine. UCLA has an amazing history, and they are still very, very strong. And I pretty much love their team to death as well, but they are no longer hands down the best team on the West Coast.

Reasons why UCLA is no longer the hands-down best program on the west coast:
1.) The West grew up. Look at how many programs are being born in the West Coast (Irvine, Scripps, UCSD, Washington, CMC - If I remember correctly they are fairly young too?). There is a much stiffer competition out there now then there used to be.
2.) I'm a results guy, I like to see results before I claim someone is the best. Who took the tournament out in Irvine? That's right, Cal.
3.) Which programs out in the west had to turn down two bids (i.e. All 4 teams from their programs qualified), I really don't care to list them. If I did, however, UCLA would not be on that list.

Conclusion:
With the likes of Cal, Irvine, Claremont McKenna, Stanford, ASU, USC, Redlands, UCSD, Washington, UCLA has some competition. Look back at that list and there are 5 youngish programs, 2 first year programs. I would already match Irvine up against UCLA  as one of the best programs in the West. Cal is a given, they have proved all year long that they are a program to be reckoned with. I competed against Claremont McKenna and would not be afraid to put them up against UCLA A.

With all that being said, I LOVE UCLA. They are a tremendous team. But you TRULY underestimate the rest of the west if you think they are the hands-down best team of the West Coast. You would make the same mistake putting NYU over Columbia (so far both teams are 2-2 against each other when it counts).

As far as the other teams, Furman, still a great program, but there are going to be a lot of great programs in Greenville. I don't think Furman will finish 8-0 with a PD of +80. I do think they'll qualify.

Bellarmine is fantastic, I am being honest when I say that is the team that scares me the most in Memphis. But I think it would be far too presumptuous to claim that they are the best there. There are still lots of good teams.

How many of these teams that you are claiming to be the best in their ORCS have you seen btw? How many of the teams competing with them have you seen? I've seen damn near every team that was in Irvine this weekend, I've seen less of the others, but I've seen enough to stick by my statements.

EDIT: I am aware that Cal took the tournament based on CS and the 7-1 teams were Cal, and UCLA A and B. But if there are two 7-1 teams at the end of round 4 in the national tournament,  the team given the go-ahead to compete in the final round is also determined by CS. My point is only to show there is more competition for the best team, then is being accredited by TCO.

[IRockTheMock]

i would say that UCLA is by far ONE of the best in the west, right there at the top, absolutely. but the one and only BEST team out there? eh, no i think Cal and UC Irvine are up there too, if not better. we (ASU) faced UCLA A in our last round at ORCS and we split with them. and while they were definitely great and it was indeed a fantastic round, i thought UC Irvine A was actually better.

[IRockTheMock]

and just for the record, Cal won the Irvine ORCS because we took a ballot from UCLA A in the final round otherwise they would have won and been undefeated... so yeah, there's alot of other super great teams in the west other than just UCLA

[mossgathered]

What was the name of that other western team that is sending two to Des Moines... oh wait...


I've caught myself over the past few years falling victim to wanting to come up with a reason for UCLA isn't the best in our area.  And it's totally understandable and easy to do.... if they're the best in the west, then I'm not and that makes me feel less about myself.  But competing in their shadow you have to eventually come to the realization, they're one of the best in the nation- let alone the west.  Take solace in that you are losing to the best.

[No Time]

Which team is Irvine A -- who is on that team?  Did they compete at the Downtown this year?

[theChosenOne]

I don't even know what to say that . I am in no way discounting the other teams in those super regionals. I know that anyone can lose on any given day. I was just trying to say that there have to be clear favorites in just about every super regional. You can say that I'm wrong, as you have, and also have the evidence to back it up, as you have, but I was merely giving my opinion. Think of it like this. If you had to pick one team in Hamilton, Irvine, Memhis and Easton to win before the ORCS began, Are you telling me you wouldn't pick NYU, UCLA, Bellarmine, and Harvard? You can obviously point out what happened to Harvard, but in the spirit of just picking favorites, would you not agree? Think of it as if you were placing 20 dollar bets on one team to place in the top 6. That's my point, it wasn't to discount other teams and say the ORC wasn't tough.

[IRockTheMock]

Irvine A has Marisa Oxman, Shima Gorgani, Brisa Simmons, Ben Larson...and yes, i believe they did go to the Downtown invitational, though i can't be 100% certain because our team was not there...they are a fantastic team, very clean, very polished. we scrimmaged them the Friday night before ORCS and i honestly felt they were better than UCLA A, who we saw in our final round. i agree that UCLA is superb, and yes, when I think of the best teams out here in the west, they of course are at the top, but i believe UC Irvine really is up to par with them as well....

[Rane]

What was the name of that other western team that is sending two to Des Moines... oh wait...


I've caught myself over the past few years falling victim to wanting to come up with a reason for UCLA isn't the best in our area.  And it's totally understandable and easy to do.... if they're the best in the west, then I'm not and that makes me feel less about myself.  But competing in their shadow you have to eventually come to the realization, they're one of the best in the nation- let alone the west.  Take solace in that you are losing to the best.

True. But to be fair, and maybe I was alone on this.  I felt that Irvine was going to be such a bloodbath, that for any of the programs to be able to qualify both of their teams they were going to need to be lucky. I felt there were a couple of programs with two teams strong enough to send both at a less competitive tournament.

and TCO. My point is that I cannot pick out the best team from any of the ORCS which is what you were asking. I have favorites, and they may be some of the teams listed, they may not be.