Divisions are out

[Nonsensical]

I have to disagree.  In past years your argument might have been true, but this year everyone at nationals, everyone, had to pass through the fire of ORCS.

I agree.  I think this is going to be a very interesting year.  We've seen major upsets with substantially strong programs not fielding a single team to Iowa.  No team had the advantage of going through an "easier" regional to get a direct bid.  It will be very interesting to see how everything plays out.

[-]

How were the names chosen?

[KhoyaY]

Belin Lamson McCormick Zumbach Flynn Division
1. 1006 Virginia
2. 1007 Virginia
3. 1109 Penn
4. 1203 Boston U
5. 1425 Georgetown
6. 1426 Georgetown
7. 1082 Furman
8. 1083 Furman
9. 1485 UCLA
10. 1485 UCLA
11. 1267 Northwestern
12. 1268 Northwestern
13. 1312 Grinnell
14. 1392 Miami U
15. 1393 Miami U
16. 1069 Princeton
17. 1189 George Washington
18. 1230 Texas
19. 1263 Duke
20. 1299 UC - Irvine
21. 1123 Brown
22. 1186 Minnesota Morris
23. 1136 Washington University
24. 1149 Illinois - Chicago

Iowa State Bar Association Young Lawyers Division
1. 1051 Cornell University
2. 1567 New York University
3. 1029 Rhodes College
4. 1030 Rhodes College
5. 1184 Richmond
6. 1304 Tennessee
7. 1156 Cal
8. 1146 Michigan
9. 1147 Michigan
10. 1026 Cornell College
11. 1271 Iowa
12. 1272 Iowa
13. 1022 Pitt
14. 1249 Yale
15. 1024 Eastern Kentucky
16. 1172 Claremont McKenna
17. 1040 Arizona
18. 1167 Syracuse
19. 1563 Washington & Lee
20. 1160 UAB
21. 1440 Northwood
22. 1126 Drake
23. 1234 Stanford
24. 1446 Columbia University

Wow......welcome to the NBA.

[bluedevilsadvocate]

The division doc explains the four criteria used to assign teams.

I'm curious how the first three criteria are applied. Does the tab director do it by hand? Is there some element of randomness? I.e.- if you are trying to assign out the champions, did the tab director put in the names of the winners from each division in a hat and pull four out for one division and four for the other?

[MizzouMock]

The division doc explains the four criteria used to assign teams.

I'm curious how the first three criteria are applied. Does the tab director do it by hand? Is there some element of randomness? I.e.- if you are trying to assign out the champions, did the tab director put in the names of the winners from each division in a hat and pull four out for one division and four for the other?

As the guy responsible for the actual drawing of cards, I will explain.
I had eight 3x5 index cards with the names of each of the ORC winners.
After a good face-down shuffle, I drew a card.  That team went in D1.  The runner up from that ORC went into D2.  I drew another card.  That team went in D2, the runner up went into D1.  Etc, etc.

[MiaWUCU]

Wash U and Columbia have not been in the same Golds division since 2002 (when Columbia A stomped poor, fledgling Wash U B).  Thanks Mizzou for keeping it real - works out well for this proud alum/coach.   

[Lyons]

As the guy responsible for the actual drawing of cards, I will explain.
I had eight 3x5 index cards with the names of each of the ORC winners.
After a good face-down shuffle, I drew a card.  That team went in D1.  The runner up from that ORC went into D2.  I drew another card.  That team went in D2, the runner up went into D1.  Etc, etc.

Mr. Woodward describes the process accurately. All I was there to do was to record the results, as, with a team in competition, I felt someone else should actually do the draw.

[stopattop]

all the teams that qualified are obviously good and regardless the competition is going to be MUCH harder in Iowa. however, i would have to say the competition in the McCormick Zumbach Flynn Division seems harder. not to take away from any of the teams in the other division which includes some hard-hitting teams but relatively speaking there are no good teams all great teams in Flynn.

[AlHabibi]

not to take away from any of the teams in the other division which includes some hard-hitting teams but relatively speaking there are no good teams all great teams in Flynn.

It seems you meant to do just that, to castigate the teams of the ISBA division merely b/c they were randomly placed in that division. "(S)ome hard-hitting teams" vs. "all great teams" is far from "not to take away" from the teams in the ISBA division.

I'm not competing in Iowa so I personally don't really care about which division is "worse" but at first glance I would agree that Flynn is tougher. However, after some thought I don't have any real qualms with the parity.

The Flynn division has 6 schools with two teams. ISBA has three. Thus, teams in the Flynn division have a higher probability of hitting "B" teams given that a quarter of the division is made up of second-squads. Yes, yes, some schools don't "stack" but most do. When is the last time a "B" squad made it to the final round? Ever?

Why is it that every year pages are filled with posts lamenting the divisions. It's the National Championship people, it's going to be a bitch. Isn't that why we have to go through Regional and ORCS tournaments? If you want to be considered the best, then you have to beat the best. 'Nuff said.

The only reason you argue one division is tougher than the other is to lower expectations for the teams in the "hard division". Are people seriously going to argue hitting NYU, Rhodes, Iowa and Cal is significantly easier than hitting UVA, Furman, Northwestern, and UCLA?

[mossgathered]

Are people seriously going to argue hitting NYU, Rhodes, Iowa and Cal is significantly easier than hitting UVA, Furman, Northwestern, and UCLA?

It's Nationals-- nobody can argue their is potential, in either division, for some nightmare schedules... however, given the concentration of top programs in the Flynn division it is more likely to luck out and get one of the nightmare schedule you've pieced together

[ProudFounder]

Are people seriously going to argue hitting NYU, Rhodes, Iowa and Cal is significantly easier than hitting UVA, Furman, Northwestern, and UCLA?

Personally, I hope that people who would say that would do so here, and identify yourself and your school.  My guess is, nobody in their right mind is going to respond to this post as invited.  I hope I'm wrong though.  Nothing like bulletin board material for the top teams in the country, whether it's this year or next year. 

[stopattop]

Personally, I hope that people who would say that would do so here, and identify yourself and your school.  My guess is, nobody in their right mind is going to respond to this post as invited.  I hope I'm wrong though.  Nothing like bulletin board material for the top teams in the country, whether it's this year or next year. 

i agree.. no one is going to respond to that b/c i don't think that is what people are trying to say. there are amazing teams in both divisions; it is the national championship for a reason! but when u look at the divisions as a whole people can say one division seems harder than the other... like mcQ would say when you look at the TOTALITY of the evidence

[JusticeSeeker]

As the guy responsible for the actual drawing of cards, I will explain.
I had eight 3x5 index cards with the names of each of the ORC winners.
After a good face-down shuffle, I drew a card.  That team went in D1.  The runner up from that ORC went into D2.  I drew another card.  That team went in D2, the runner up went into D1.  Etc, etc.

And that's the problem, no?  That you should have first considered balancing the top-20 teams between the divisions rather than simply drawing randomly?

[MizzouMock]

And that's the problem, no?  That you should have first considered balancing the top-20 teams between the divisions rather than simply drawing randomly?

My direction from, and rule interpretation, of our tabulation director is that the draw occurs first of the ORC champions and runners up, followed by the draw of the remaining top-20 BBR teams, followed by the non-top-20 BBR teams.

[ImproperCharacter]

The Flynn division has 6 schools with two teams. ISBA has three. Thus, teams in the Flynn division have a higher probability of hitting "B" teams given that a quarter of the division is made up of second-squads. Yes, yes, some schools don't "stack" but most do. When is the last time a "B" squad made it to the final round? Ever?

Well in 1992 Maryland had both teams in the national championship round so you have to figure one of those was the "B" team. Aside from that I don't know.

Others have come close though. 2 years ago Harvard had the top two teams in their division. Last year Miami B was 6-0 going into the last round and dropped both to GW. If they had split they would have won the 7-1 tie break with a CS 21. Really there are no "B" teams at  nationals. All of those teams qualified over many programs' A teams.

Regardless, I think that the Flynn division is stronger, but only by a very slim margin.I will admit, however, to having seen more of those teams' strength first hand, which is quite possibly the reason I think that.