Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 144

Thread: 2011-2012 Power Poll

  1. #41
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    8
    Karma
    0
    No Cornell? They've won two tournaments (Penn State and Brandies) and came 4th (I think...) at Pitt. Jeez, PowerPoll is tough

  2. #42
    Senior Member a-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    554
    Karma
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by NotEnough View Post
    No Cornell? They've won two tournaments (Penn State and Brandies) and came 4th (I think...) at Pitt. Jeez, PowerPoll is tough
    Fairly unrepresentative sample of voters... You can't read too much into a poll like this. Although, I am surprised Cornell didn't make it; they're usually pretty good.
    Objection ... he's making my witness look like a fool.

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    192
    Karma
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by NotEnough View Post
    No Cornell? They've won two tournaments (Penn State and Brandies) and came 4th (I think...) at Pitt. Jeez, PowerPoll is tough
    Looking at the Pitt tab summary, there was a 3 way tie at 5 -3 past 3rd place that was posted. Cincy was 4h with 20 CS, Bellarmine was 5th with a 17.5 CS, and Cornell was 6th with a 15.5 CS.. Having seen Cincy at that tournament, they certainly should deserve some consideration. Minton (who just dropped off the top 5 witness list) is just as good on the attorney side of things.
    Last edited by Cloud; 12-02-2011 at 01:00 PM.
    Dominance Beyond All Reasonable Doubt

  4. #44
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    10
    Karma
    11
    Who exactly gets to vote in these things? Is it just anyone who happens to read this thread?

  5. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    462
    Karma
    19
    Interesting.

  6. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,084
    Karma
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by EBH846847 View Post
    Who exactly gets to vote in these things? Is it just anyone who happens to read this thread?
    And is willing to submit a poll, yes.
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." ~Mark Twain

  7. #47
    Senior Member Chris_Hitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Lexington, VA
    Posts
    227
    Karma
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by NotEnough View Post
    No Cornell? They've won two tournaments (Penn State and Brandies) and came 4th (I think...) at Pitt. Jeez, PowerPoll is tough
    No Toylee, no respect
    "I believe that, so long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." --RFK

  8. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    649
    Karma
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    That wasn't our A team. The team you faced had 1 attorney from our A team and 1 witness from our A team. We have not only this year but in past years beaten top teams from the top 25. We have beaten Northwood, Notre Dame, Michigan , BGSU, Bellermine, WashU, Loyola and others before my time. Not all of these are from this year Loyola, Bellermine and BGSU are.
    I preface this by saying I respect the East. Mich. program and thing you have lots of potential for national success. But you haven't beaten Loyola's A team this year. You haven't played them.

  9. #49
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    17
    Karma
    11
    Given the new power poll results I was interested in what the tournament data actually showed. Are the polls driven by brand names or results?

    These results are all by school only. I have no idea what tournament was the A v. D team, nor do I know the rosters involved for stacked v. even teams. All numbers were pulled from the Results section here and the AMTA Web site.

    Here's what the numbers tell us (note: I couldn't find anything for Case Western but heard Iowa won; I couldn’t find anything for the Iowa tournament but heard Northwestern won):

    Power Poll #2

    [numbers in () are ballots won at the given tournament, if known]


    1. Virginia 552
    - GAMTI 1st (11) & 4th (8.5); CUBAIT 1st (7) & 6th (5); Elon 2nd (6.5) & 4th (6)
    2. UCLA 533
    - Anteater 8th (2.5); Red Carpet 4th (7.5) & 6th (7.5); Irvine 3rd (10)
    3. UC-Irvine 532
    - Anteater 1st (4), 2nd (4) & 6th (3); Arizona 6th (6); Red Carpet 2nd (9); Irvine 1st (13)
    4. Miami (OH) 488
    - OSU 2nd (6.5) & 4th (6); Duke 6th (5) & 9th (5); Ill. State 2nd (6.5) & 6th (5.5); EKU 3rd (6), 4th (6) & 6th (5); CUBAIT 2nd (7); Red Carpet 1st (10); Irvine 2nd (9)
    5. Harvard 414
    - CUBAIT 4th (6) & 5th (6)
    6. NYU 412
    - GAMTI 7th (7)
    7. Georgia 406
    - Florida State 1st (7) & 3rd (6); GAMTI 3rd (9); Yale 1st (10); MTSU 2nd (7) & 4th (6)
    8. UC-Berkeley 310
    - No top finishes found
    9. Tufts 307
    - Yale 1st; UMass 1st (7.5) & 2nd (7); CUBAIT 8th (4); Tufts 1st (7)
    10. Rhodes 290
    - MTSU 5th (6); EKU 2nd (6); Red Carpet 4th (7.5)
    11. Texas 268
    - No top finishes found
    12. Penn 227
    - Irvine 5th (9.5)
    13. Washington & Lee 191
    - GAMTI 2nd (9); Duke 1st (7)
    14. Furman 184
    - EKU 1st (7); Duke 2nd (6.5)
    15. University of Washington 182
    - Emerald City 1st & 2nd
    16. Duke 174
    - GAMTI 5th (7.5); Duke 5th (5); CUBAIT 3rd (6); American 3rd (6.5)
    17. Brown 171
    - Brandeis 4th (5.5)
    18. Arizona State 165
    - Arizona 4th (6); Anteater 3rd (3) & 5th (3)
    19. George Washington 153
    - Duke 3rd (6); Pitt 1st (6)
    20. Northwood 152
    - GAMTI 9th (6.5); Pitt 3rd (5.5)
    21. University of Chicago 143
    - Macalester 2nd (7.5)
    22. Columbia 111
    - GAMTI 10th (6.5); CUBAIT 9th (4); Tufts 4th (6); Duke 4th (6)
    23. Michigan 108
    - No top finishes found
    24. University of Southern California 99
    - Penn 1st (7), 4th (6), 5th (6) & 8th (6); Macalester 9th (6)
    25. Princeton 79
    - Yale 3rd; Irvine 4th (9.5); Tufts 3rd (6.5)

    The next ten:
    Washington-St. Louis 75
    - WashU 1st (8) & 2nd (7.5); Red Carpet 5th (7.5)
    Iowa 71
    - WashU 4th (6); Macalester 1st (8) & 3rd (7); Case Western 1st; Northwest Missouri State 6th (5.5); Macalester II 1st (7) & 4th (6)
    Yale 54
    - No top finishes found
    Loyola-Chicago 53
    - OSU 5th (6); EKU 8th (5); Illinois State 1st (7); CUBAIT 7th (5)
    Maryland 52
    - GAMTI 8th (6.5)
    Macalester 47
    - Minnesota 3rd (6); Macalester II 3rd (7) & 9th (5)
    EKU 45
    - No top finishes found
    Penn State 34
    - UMass 8th (5); Yale 3rd (8); Tufts 5th (4.5); Pitt 2nd (6); Washington & Jefferson 2nd (6); Colgate 4th (6)
    Patrick Henry 32
    - No top finishes found
    South Carolina 32
    - Duke 8th (5); Florida State 4th (6); Elon 1st (7)

    Other notable exclusions:
    Air Force: Air Force 1st (8) & 4th (6); WashU 3rd (6.5)
    Minnesota: Minnesota 2nd (7) & 4th (6); Macalester 5th (6.5) & 8th (6); Macalester II 2nd (7) & 6th (6)
    Northwestern: Bradley 1st (8); Iowa 1st
    Wellesley: Yale 2nd (8); Tufts 2nd (6.5); Brandeis 4th (5.5)
    North Carolina: Duke 7th (5); Penn 9th (6); American 4th (6); FSU 2nd (6.5)
    Georgetown: Yale 2nd; American 1st (8)
    Central Florida: MTSU 1st (8), 2nd (7) & 3rd (6.5)
    Temple: Washington & Jefferson 1st; Penn 4th (7)

    Also: SMU, Washburn, Gonzaga, Cornell University, MTSU, Central Florida, & Elgin have all won tournaments this fall.

    Interesting Trends:
    Bernstein Bump: Two teams that were invited to the Beach Party were ranked in the Top 25 by voters despite failing to place at any fall invitational tournaments.

    Midwestern Bias: Teams that stay in the Midwest tend to be ignored by the voters. Be it the sample of voters or a lack of respect, Midwest teams are given no love even with impressive fall finishes (see Northwestern, Iowa, Washington-St. Louis, Minnesota, and Loyola). Just remember boys and girls, the NCT is in St. Paul.

    Voter Snubs: Loyola is the only team to finish top 10 at CUBAIT not to be ranked in the top 25; Washington-St. Louis is the only team to be ranked in the top 5 at the Red Carpet not to be ranked in the top 25; South Carolina and North Carolina are the only two teams placing in the top ten at Duke not to be ranked; Maryland is the only GAMTI top ten finisher not ranked in the top 25; and Penn State is the only team finishing in the top 3 at Pitt, and with a solid fall showing elsewhere, to not be ranked.

    Zero Calorie Love Fest: EKU, Patrick Henry, Yale, Michigan, Texas, and UC-Berkeley all rank without any top finishes (found by me) this fall.

    If I made a mistake, let me know (like I said I don’t have but hearsay to rely on for winners for some tournaments and was limited by what was posted here and on AMTA).

    EDIT: Updated PSU; fixed Washington's results; updated USC; updated Temple
    Last edited by Cpt Obvious; 12-06-2011 at 10:46 AM.

  10. #50
    Senior Member a-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    554
    Karma
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Obvious View Post
    24. University of Southern California 99
    - Penn 4th (6), 5th (6) & 8th (6); Macalester 9th (6)
    Southern Cal took 1st, 4th, 5th, and 8th at Penn, not just 4th, 5th, and 8th.
    Objection ... he's making my witness look like a fool.

  11. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    192
    Karma
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Obvious View Post
    Penn State 34
    - UMass 8th (5); Yale 3rd (8); Tufts 5th (4.5); Pitt 2nd (6)
    To add, Penn State also finished 2nd at Washington and Jefferson (6) and 4th at Colgate (6). Additionally, the only two stacked Penn State teams to go out this fall were the 'A' team at Pitt and 'B' team at Yale.
    Dominance Beyond All Reasonable Doubt

  12. #52
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    6
    Karma
    0
    Cpt. Obvious, thanks for the breakdown. One adjustment I would suggest is to filter out the records of school's C and D teams. I know that, in the top 5 for example, UCLA, Irvine, and Miami all have more than two teams, and I would argue that a school's ranking should be based on their A and B team performances (those students likely to compete at nationals). Probably the best way to determine which team is which (if there is indeed a debate) is by looking at what tournaments each team competed at.

  13. #53
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    The Bay
    Posts
    24
    Karma
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Controversy View Post
    Cpt. Obvious, thanks for the breakdown. One adjustment I would suggest is to filter out the records of school's C and D teams. I know that, in the top 5 for example, UCLA, Irvine, and Miami all have more than two teams, and I would argue that a school's ranking should be based on their A and B team performances (those students likely to compete at nationals). Probably the best way to determine which team is which (if there is indeed a debate) is by looking at what tournaments each team competed at.
    I agree with the idea of this, but there's really no way to be sure because many teams remain unstacked until Regionals.


    Additionally, I think Temple needs to be considered for the "Next Ten" or "Notable Excluded" categories. They finished 2nd at Penn and won the Washington&Jefferson tournament.

  14. #54
    Senior Member a-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    554
    Karma
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Obvious View Post
    Zero Calorie Love Fest: EKU, Patrick Henry, Yale, Michigan, Texas, University of Washington, and UC-Berkeley all rank without any top finishes (found by me) this fall.

    Washington took 1st and 2nd at the Emerald City Open.
    Objection ... he's making my witness look like a fool.

  15. #55
    Senior Member a-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    554
    Karma
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by TensAllDay View Post
    I agree with the idea of this, but there's really no way to be sure because many teams remain unstacked until Regionals.


    Additionally, I think Temple needs to be considered for the "Next Ten" or "Notable Excluded" categories. They finished 2nd at Penn and won the Washington&Jefferson tournament.
    I had Temple in my top 25... That's damn impressive.
    Objection ... he's making my witness look like a fool.

  16. #56
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Posts
    73
    Karma
    17
    Great work in compiling this. Regardless of whether they are stacked yet or teams beyond A & B are included, I think this pretty much confirms what we've all known about the Power Poll since the level of parity in AMTA increased - voters are generally supporting programs that were Top 25 material in the past over those that necessarily deserve to be considered Top 25 material now. It is a shame that most voters don't do the kind of overview of results you have done before submitting a ballot.
    It takes a long time to bring excellence to maturity.
    - Publilius Syrus

  17. #57
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    17
    Karma
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Controversy View Post
    Cpt. Obvious, thanks for the breakdown. One adjustment I would suggest is to filter out the records of school's C and D teams. I know that, in the top 5 for example, UCLA, Irvine, and Miami all have more than two teams, and I would argue that a school's ranking should be based on their A and B team performances (those students likely to compete at nationals). Probably the best way to determine which team is which (if there is indeed a debate) is by looking at what tournaments each team competed at.
    I disagree that I need to filter out results.
    1) I have no idea what squads are A v. D. I am not about to e-mail every coach in the country to start asking, either.
    2) I am not going to guess A v D based on my subjective analysis of tournament prestige
    3) Some teams don't stack until regionals or even ORCS. 8 wins is 8 wins regardless of the talent on the team. I'm just reporting numbers.
    4) I think a broad range of results is better for the evaluation of school strength. If a school is dominating with A through D, or unstacked teams, then that should be known by the voters. We aren't ranking A squads only. We are ranking schools. A school that is deep, in theory, indicates a better chance at success later when all the talent is concentrated together at ORCS.


    As for the edits. I will try to get those posted as they come in. Like I said, I was just going by what I could find. It was a lot of data, so I'm sure there are some errors. No malice intended.

  18. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    192
    Karma
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt Obvious View Post
    I disagree that I need to filter out results.
    1) I have no idea what squads are A v. D. I am not about to e-mail every coach in the country to start asking, either.
    2) I am not going to guess A v D based on my subjective analysis of tournament prestige
    3) Some teams don't stack until regionals or even ORCS. 8 wins is 8 wins regardless of the talent on the team. I'm just reporting numbers.
    4) I think a broad range of results is better for the evaluation of school strength. If a school is dominating with A through D, or unstacked teams, then that should be known by the voters. We aren't ranking A squads only. We are ranking schools. A school that is deep, in theory, indicates a better chance at success later when all the talent is concentrated together at ORCS.


    As for the edits. I will try to get those posted as they come in. Like I said, I was just going by what I could find. It was a lot of data, so I'm sure there are some errors. No malice intended.
    I think the way your doing it is fine and this is an absurd amount of analysis on your part. Greatly appreciated and I would love to know if having this information widely available would significantly change the polls.
    Dominance Beyond All Reasonable Doubt

  19. #59
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,084
    Karma
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud View Post
    I think the way your doing it is fine and this is an absurd amount of analysis on your part. Greatly appreciated and I would love to know if having this information widely available would significantly change the polls.
    Might find out with the next power poll.
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." ~Mark Twain

  20. #60
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    161
    Karma
    11
    University of Arizona has 5th at GSS, 3rd at Airforce, 3rd at Emerald City open and 8th at UCLA's UClassic, which is more place finishes than several power poll teams.
    Last edited by Azmodai2; 01-18-2012 at 04:24 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •