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Thread: All-Star East v. West Championship Teams

  1. #1
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    All-Star East v. West Championship Teams

    A while ago, Prognosticator included a hypothetical pair of teams representing the best either half of America had to offer in terms of mock trial competitors in one of his rankings posts.

    He stacked the openers, middlers and closers, as well as the sympathetic, character and expert witnesses, on each side of the case for both halves of the country.

    I think it's a fun exercise, and given that PS's thread is inspiring some heated debate, I'd like to see how you guys would stack your all-star teams.

    This is the format...

    [WEST]

    P Opener: Neil Thakor (UC Irvine) [IIIIIII], Brandon Hughes (UCLA) [IIII]
    P Middler: Amanda Mundell (UCLA) [IIIII], James Caress (UCLA) [IIII], Nick Crown (Washington) [II], Iain Lampert (UCLA), Rahul Hari (UC Irvine), Patrick O'Connor (UCSC)
    P Closer: Patrick O'Connor (UCSC) [IIIIII], James Caress (UCLA) [IIII], Rahul Hari (UC Irvine) [III]
    P Sympathetic Witness: Megan Timpane (UCLA) [IIIIIIII], Mazamir Yousefi (UC Irvine) [IIII], Tom Collins (UC Irvine) [II]
    P Character Witness: Iain Lampert (UCLA) [IIIIIIII], Landon Whitbread (Washington) [II], Tom Collins (UC Irvine) [II]
    P Expert Witness: Alex Hill (UCLA) [IIIIII], Amanda Mundell (UCLA) [IIII], Ryan Cardenas (UC Irvine) [III], Iain Lampert (UCLA)

    D Opener: Neil Thakor (UC Irvine) [IIIIIII], Alex Hill (UCLA) [II], Brandon Hughes (UCLA)
    D Middler: James Caress (UCLA) [IIIIII], Rahul Hari (UC Irvine) [IIIII], Patrick O'Connor (UCSC)
    D Closer: Brandon Hughes (UCLA) [IIIIIII], Patrick O'Connor (UCSC) [IIII], Rahul Hari (UC Irvine) [II]
    D Sympathetic Witness: Yasmin Hadian (UC Berkeley) [IIIIII], Megan Timpane (UCLA) [IIII]
    D Character Witness: Iain Lampert (UCLA) [IIIIII], Tom Collins (UC Irvine) [IIII]
    D Expert Witness: Amanda Mundell (UCLA) [IIIIIIIII], Ryan Cardenas (UC Irvine), Iain Lampert (UCLA)

    Coach: Justin Bernstein (UC Irvine) [IIIII], Gonzalo Freixes (UCLA) [II]

    (Justification for choices.)

    [MIDWEST]

    P Opener: Alex Block (Miami-OH) [IIIIIII]
    P Middler: Patrick Wixson (Northwood) [IIIIII], Alyssa Pronley (Loyola-Chicago) [II]
    P Closer: Biren Bhansali (Northwestern) [IIIIII], Alycia Walker (Miami-OH), Josh Peterson (Hamline), Alyssa Pronley (Loyola-Chicago)
    P Sympathetic Witness: Andie Jackson (Miami-OH) [IIIII], Katie Law (Miami-OH), Amanda Riley (Northwood), Julia Phillips-Roth (Loyola-Chicago)
    P Character Witness: Pavel Gurevich (Miami-OH) [IIIII], Derek Gegner (Hamline) [III], Deborah O'Neal (Miami-OH)
    P Expert Witness: Tyler Minton (Cincinnati) [IIIIII], Pavel Gurevich (Miami-OH) [III], Nathaniel Smith (Macalester), David Weber (Loyola-Chicago)

    D Opener: Alex Block (Miami-OH) [IIIII], Nicolette Gillingham (Hamline) [III], Alycia Walker (Miami-OH)
    D Middler: Alyssa Pronley (Loyola-Chicago) [IIIII], Alycia Walker (Miami-OH) [II], Zac Hansen (University of Minnesota)
    D Closer: Biren Bhansali (Northwestern) [IIIIII], Indiana Gowland (Macalester)
    D Sympathetic Witness: Andie Jackson (Miami-OH) [IIIIII], Samantha Gupta (Macalester) [II]
    D Character Witness: Deborah O'Neal (Miami-OH) [IIIII], Pavel Gurevich (Miami-OH) [II], Robert Bauch (Loras) [II]
    D Expert Witness: Pavel Gurevich (Miami-OH) [IIIII], Tyler Minton (Cincinnati) [IIIII], Josh Martenson (University of Minnesota)

    Coach: Jackie Palmer (Hamline) [IIIII], Dan Herron (Miami-OH), Michael Walsh (Loyola-Chicago)

    (Justification for choices.)

    [NORTHEAST]

    P Opener: Ben Wallace (UVa) [IIIIIIII], Jean Paul Jacquet (Harvard) [II]
    P Middler: Doug Haefele (Penn) [IIIII], Nick LoCastro (Tufts) [III], Patrick Diamond (NYU) [II], Vinay Nayak (Yale)
    P Closer: Paul Blair (George Washington) [IIIIII], Ben Wallace (UVa) [II], Doug Haefele (Penn) [II], Vinay Nayak (Yale)
    P Sympathetic Witness: Jean Paul Jacquet (Harvard) [IIIIIII]
    P Character Witness: Miranda Beltzer (Harvard) [IIIIII], Bill Visone (NYU) [II], Liam McCabe (UVa)
    P Expert Witness: Harshitha Kilari (Columbia) [IIIIIII]

    D Opener: Ben Wallace (UVa) [IIIIII], Jean Paul Jacquet (Harvard) [IIIII]
    D Middler: Vinay Nayak (Yale) [IIIII], Nick LoCastro (Tufts) [II], Jean Paul Jacquet (Harvard), Ben Wallace (UVa), Doug Haefele (Penn)
    D Closer: Paul Blair (George Washington) [IIIII], Nick LoCastro (Tufts) [III], Chris Ballesteros (Harvard), Megan O'Donnell (UVa)
    D Sympathetic Witness: Jean Paul Jacquet (Harvard) [IIIII], Miranda Beltzer (Harvard), Sean Oulette (Harvard)
    D Character Witness: Miranda Beltzer (Harvard) [IIIII], Bill Visone (NYU) [IIII]
    D Expert Witness: Jay Friedel (Penn) [IIIIIII], Harshitha Kilari (Columbia) [II]

    Coach: Toby Heytens (UVa) [IIIII], Justin Mataresse (NYU)

    (Justification for choices.)

    [SOUTH]

    P Opener: Thomas Cull (Rhodes) [IIIIIIII], Ethan Treacy (Georgia) [III], Rachel Harmon (MTSU), Matthew Scarvie (ASU)
    P Middler: Monica Bracey (South Carolina) [IIIII], Uriah Harrell (Bowling Green) [III], Grady Lowman (UAB) [II], Matthew Scarvie (ASU) [II], Brian Price (UAB), Thomas Cull (Rhodes)
    P Closer: Uriah Harrell (Bowling Green) [IIIII], Lydia Fuller (Vanderbilt) [IIIII], Brandon Amey (Georgia) [II], Grady Lowman (UAB)
    P Sympathetic Witness: Leia Andrew (Vanderbilt) [IIIIIIIII]
    P Character Witness: Pauline Dyer (Rhodes) [IIIIIIIIIII]
    P Expert Witness: Kaitlin Beck (MTSU) [IIIIII], Alyssa Richardson (Furman) [IIII]

    D Opener: Thomas Cull (Rhodes) [IIIIIII], Ethan Treacy (Georgia) [IIII], Brittany Yarbrough (ASU) [II]
    D Middler: Brittany Yarbrough (ASU) [IIIII], Matthew Scarvie (ASU) [III], Ethan Treacy (Georgia) [II]
    D Closer: John Gulledge (South Carolina) [IIIIIIII], Ben Morrell (Rhodes) [III], Uriah Harrell (Bowling Green)
    D Sympathetic Witness: Leia Andrew (Vanderbilt) [IIIIII]
    D Character Witness: Pauline Dyer (Rhodes) [IIIIIIIIII]
    D Expert Witness: Katelyn Beck (Georgia) [IIIIIIII]

    Coach: Marcus Pohlmann (Rhodes) [IIIIIIII], Glen Halva-Neubauer (Furman), Anna Smith (Rhodes)

    (Justification for choices.)

    [FINAL ROUND]

    (Which teams make it?)

    (Which witnesses rank the highest?)

    (Which attorneys rank the highest?)

    (What will the margins be?)
    Last edited by Gabriebound; 02-19-2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Edited with the 20th batch of options.

  2. #2
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    What is the dividing line between East and West? If you use the Mississippi River, which geographically splits the country in two, that puts 41 of the Prod Top 50 schools on the "East" side, and only 9 in the "West" category. Six of the country's eight ORCS are in the East, only one in the west, with St. Louis straddling the line in the middle of the country.

    Regional all-star teams are a cool idea, but the original post you describe listed four teams -- Northeast, Midwest, South, and West -- which more accurately represents the geographical distribution of schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranklinPierce View Post
    What is the dividing line between East and West? If you use the Mississippi River, which geographically splits the country in two, that puts 41 of the Prod Top 50 schools on the "East" side, and only 9 in the "West" category. Six of the country's eight ORCS are in the East, only one in the west, with St. Louis straddling the line in the middle of the country.

    Regional all-star teams are a cool idea, but the original post you describe listed four teams -- Northeast, Midwest, South, and West -- which more accurately represents the geographical distribution of schools.
    I agree--I was misremembering Prog's older post. I'll edit the OP.

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    Cool idea. Can people be on both sides of the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy Long Legs View Post
    Cool idea. Can people be on both sides of the case?
    Yeah, sure.

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    Obligatory Rhodes v. Rhodes post.

  7. #7
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    I just got a number of private messages concerning the South and the West. I've updated the OP with suggestions from these PMs.

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    Why do some slots such as the P closing have multiple people like O'connor, Hughes, and Hari, where as the P opening only has Thakore?

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    Nvm I got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind View Post
    Why do some slots such as the P closing have multiple people like O'connor, Hughes, and Hari, where as the P opening only has Thakore?
    I got three PMs concerning the West. One of them left the P opening blank. The other two had only Neil opening P.

  11. #11
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    I'm somewhat confused about how a thread of subjective commentary on individual performance has even a passing relationship to the "Numbers" forum it exists in.
    "Call on God, but row away from the rocks." - Hunter S. Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayZ View Post
    I'm somewhat confused about how a thread of subjective commentary on individual performance has even a passing relationship to the "Numbers" forum it exists in.
    [edited]Eh, this was probably unnecessarily snarky. I'll merely say this whole thing seems a little silly.[/edited]
    Last edited by TenaciousDRB; 02-08-2012 at 01:58 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayZ View Post
    I'm somewhat confused about how a thread of subjective commentary on individual performance has even a passing relationship to the "Numbers" forum it exists in.
    It's based on Prog's thread. Prog indulged in a LOT of subjective commentary, but I think it's generally accepted that his presence made the Numbers forum what it was for a number of seasons.

    Given that the choices I've been PMed are based on numbers of awards won, and success of teams, I think that "even a passing relationship" has been established.

    Moreover, I would argue that the numbers in mock trial--ranks and scores--are inextricably linked to subjective thoughts about individual performance anyway.

    You don't have to take part in the exercise, but it's another fun way to get people excited about competitors.

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    Fun idea, would love to see it in real life.
    Last edited by GhostofTomJoad; 02-08-2012 at 02:17 PM.
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." ~Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriebound View Post
    It's based on Prog's thread. Prog indulged in a LOT of subjective commentary, but I think it's generally accepted that his presence made the Numbers forum what it was for a number of seasons.

    Given that the choices I've been PMed are based on numbers of awards won, and success of teams, I think that "even a passing relationship" has been established.

    Moreover, I would argue that the numbers in mock trial--ranks and scores--are inextricably linked to subjective thoughts about individual performance anyway.

    You don't have to take part in the exercise, but it's another fun way to get people excited about competitors.
    Meh. I think there are plenty of thread to get people excited about competitors. At any rate, the forum was created with more of a sabermetrics-focus in mind. This has about as much of a relationship to true statistical analysis as the All Star balloting does.
    "Call on God, but row away from the rocks." - Hunter S. Thompson

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriebound View Post

    You don't have to take part in the exercise.
    This.

    Man, people just complain for the sake of complaining...

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    I recently read somewhere that mock trial isn't actually a sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannosaurus Rex View Post
    I recently read somewhere that mock trial isn't actually a sport.
    It's not...mock trial is combat. As one of my coaches used to say when recruiting, "are you ready to engage in the highest order of intellectual combat?"

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    Updated again. Thanks to everyone for all of the feedback. I'll consider a selection "locked" once they have five votes (or ten votes, if I get an onslaught of PMs). If someone is "locked" into position on one side--for example, Pavel as a D expert--they can't be voted for as anything else on the same side (for example, Pavel could no longer be voted for as a D character).

    I would also appreciate it if I got some more commentary regarding why certain candidates were chosen.

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    Based on these divisions, I don't see how ASU (Arizona State University) would be South instead of West. It works, though, if you are trying to balance the divisions more, considering how deep the West is.

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